PTR 91, CETME OR M1A

[K31]

Does anyone own a JLD PTR 91 that would like to comment on it's accuracy and reliability. I know the overall fit and finish on them is very nice. I handle a few PTR's but never shot one. I am thinking about adding a 91, M1A or a CETME to the collection but don't know which one to roll with. The PTR's and M1A's are up there in price and I don't really want to spend that much. But I also don't want to get a CETME and have to rebuild the POS right off the bat neither. I have seen alot of junk come from Century in the past. What do you guys think?

[RandomTask]

Funny you asked; I had the same question at the H-burg gun show yesterday. A gunsmith who sells guns on the side said CETMEs are all piles of shit unless you can find one with a low serial number (4 digits or less), the PTRs have better build quality, but have their share of problems. He said he ends up doing many hours of receiver work on the average CETME that comes through his shop. The big thing with both guns is crappy headspacing and receiver wear. All other HK91 clones suck beyond belief (Hesse was an example he gave). After hearing his speach, I'd buy a .308 Saiga before a CETME.

After fondling a couple CETMEs, a Hesse, and Sprinfields, you can definitely tell the Springfield is a lot more gun for the money.

My question is, does anyone know anything about the Vector V-51?

Also, are there any other reasonably-priced combat .308 rife's out there?

[LorDiego01]

I would recommend you get yourself a Cetme. You should be able to find one for half or less of the cost of a PTR or M1A.

THe above poster is correct that some Cetme's can be a lot problems, thats why you gotta do your research and dont buy a lemmon. But then again, thats with any gun purchase.

The Cetme is pretty easy to amateur smith too, given you get yourself the right information. Parts are plentifull because most are the same as the HK, it uses HK mags which can still be found for $1 brand new.

Look for an unground bolt, a safe Bolt Gap and if you can a cast receiver for starters.
Join up www.militaryfirearm.com and head to their Cetme section, these people are grandmasters there, they'll set you up straight.

A well tuned Cetme is damn awesome rifle, anyone telling you otherwise is misinforming you.

[TonyF]

I used to own an HK91 and hated it. Very accurate in the HK OEM variant but in addition to falling within the weight range of a typical MBR, they're terribly balanced (front heavy) which makes for the worst handling characteristics of any MBR.

And lousy ergonomics to boot.

[PA Rifleman]

I pondered this as well. I chose the M1A/M14 route. As a former machinist & mechanic, I wanted a gun a had a chance of repairing. Plus, I was already familiar with the Garand architecture. The M1A is very user-friendly in terms of parts, service and manuals.

Firing the M14 confirmed my decision -- it was very accurate and trouble free. It had more recoil than I expected, but not a deal breaker. the magazines cost more than HK/CETME mags, but that's most due to the surplus market flooded and Armalite scooping all the M14 mags they could get to modify into their 308 AR rifle mags.

If you look at the CETME/HK rifles, the receiver is a stamping that's welded to the barrel. It's an okay design, obviously it works but would require a major shop or facility to rebarrel. I briefly owned an HK clone, and it wasn't anywhere near as easy to service as the M14. They're all heavy, but the HK wasn't as easy to service & support. I ended up returning the HK, as it was a Hesse and the replacement wasn't any better. I already had an M14, so I wasn't exactly desperate for a 7.62mm rifle.

I've heard quite a few happy HK & CETME owners, and I suspect if I came across an original HK I'd be just as happy. But right now I'm not interested in spending a kilobuck or two for another 7.62mm rifle that's already matured in value.

All three rifles have ugly sisters. Norinco (China) was making poor copies of the M14 years ago, there's still a few floating around in gun shows and private sales. Ironically, the receivers are alleged to be excellent. Here's a writeup: http://www.fulton-armory.com/M14S_Eval.htm

I wouldn't buy any imported 308 semi rifle that I couldn't test fire first.

[JayBell]

I currently, for 308 semi battle rifles, have:

PTR-91K (HK-91 style clone)




2 metric FN/FALs kit guns (rear guns in pic)





I Bushmaster BAR-10 (RRA LAR-10 basically, an AR10 that takes FAL mags)



Just a note....you wont get match grade accuracy with a rack grade combat style rifle, simply put.

if you want an accuracy tackdriver you have to work at it, and pay for it.

the Bushmaster BAR-10 i have is no longer made by bushmaster, but RRA has it in the works.
its a giant AR-15 in 308, and it uses FAL mags.
Higher recoil of course, but still, a nice straight back one, like an AR15.
Mine has operated flawlessly, and is accurate.


I have, in the past, owned a fantastic Fulton Armory NM M1A build, however, it was very expensive initially, and required some load tweaking to mainstain groups...especially as the barrel wore in.
Further, M1As, with regular shooting may require tuning to continue shooting so well.
Even further, genuine USGI parts for these rifles, such as replacement bolts and such are getting harder and harder to find, the gun wasn't manufactured long for the US military, tho its still in service in various forms.

the M114/M1A uses a roller guided rotating bolt just like the M1Garand, this is not adjustable, and i found mine to have a harsh, but bearable recoil.

parts and stocks, and accessories abound now, as do many models by Springfield, even tho most of them are Brazilian made, with investment cast bolts, and receivers.
Mags ar in the $15-$30 range for US Milsurp.

I have previously owned 2 HK91 rifles, and a portugese G3s, as was said above, front heavy, and fairly lousy ergonomics. i sold them all (HKs) when i got into FN/FALs.

however, recently, i got back into the HK syle rifles and bought a PTR91, it's got better fit and finish than either of the "real" HKs i owned, and its more accurate.
Same lack of ergonomics, but it's sexy with the collapsing stock:-)

the HK rifles are a hardened sheetmetal stamped receiver, with a welded in trunnion.
the action is taken from the MG42 MG, in that it has a roller locked action, where the bolt head locks into the barrel trunnion.
Difficult to headspace, and a pain to get parts.
this action is recoil activated, so it got a stiffer recoil than a gas operated action.
the barrel is pressed into the trunnion, then pinned in place, with the pins spot welded over, the barrel is NOT welded in place into the receiver.
Real HKs have free floated barrels, excellent diopter sights, and have many stock configurations
The PTRs are decent copies, mine is excellent, but they do have a heavier button rifled, no chrome-lined barrel, so its a bit heavier on the front end, but still manageable.
mine has been very accurate, and very reliable.

Unlike some others who love the Cetmes (Sorry lordiego:-), the cetmes, except for some very rare "original " PARs Itl imports are all fairly crappy surplus kit guns, usually built on a fairly dubious receiver, and done by the monkeys at Century Arms. Some work, some dont, most wont make you happy, and it's your gamble what you get when you buy one.
if one was put togther right, it will run and run, if it wasn't, you'll want to crush it

however, the HK style rifle lends itself to difficult maintence, as PA Rifleman says.

Look for a nice FAL is my suggestion, the ergonmics are there, the accuracy is on par for a MBR (1-2.5" groups shooting standard 147gr FMJ), they come in many configurations from standard metric or Inch flavors, to custom style jobs with medium to heavy barrels. and there are TONs of kit guns being sold out there, or get a factory DSA.

the FAL works with a tilt locking bolt, where the bolt closes, and the rear of the bolt drops to lock against a hardened insert in the receiver.
it's got a tuneable gas action, so the gun will work dirty or clean, with more options on ammo.
LOTS of parts all over, even US made replacement barrels, hardware, stocks, internals, to full US made FALs.

mags for HK and metric FAL rifles, 20rd standard, are running in the $2 - $5 range each also

try a FAL, you wont be unhappy...it was used by over 90 countries, and still used by many.

my KIT guns that i built, are built using Brazilian IMBEL receivers (forged FN licensee) with Austrian STG-58 mint demilled kits on them, plus the US parts.

one has been carefully chopped to a short carbine length, and has a folding stock.

I have no issues hitting 2" wide bottles of tannerite at MG shoots with iron sights, my carbine is a mite more accurate due to the shorter (and stiffer) barrel...and the longer barrel model can really hammer out the lead (well, the short one can too)
both of mine have the factory austrian Bipod installed.

look around, and see if you can meet up with folks to TRY something before you settle on one thing, you may find you like one over the other based on feel, not just the way it works.

[w1cked]

Nice guns there chief!

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by JayBell

Real HKs have ............., excellent diopter sights,

Wow! I guess one man's pain is another man's pleasure.

I forgot about the sights. I hated those too (as well as the crappy trigger).

The battle sight is set at 200 meters which is what you'd be using most often but it's a rather shallow "V" shaped notch. I also hated the fact that the front sight was completely encircled by a protective "ring". I found using any of the dipoter rear sight settings with the encircled front sight REALLY distracting (cirle + circle).

OTOH, as I stated previously, the OEM rifles were superbly accurate for an MBR and with the PGS-1 trigger unit it's about the only MBR that can do double duty as a precision rifle. IMHO the rifle's princely accuracy was overshadowed by too many other deficiencies.

[dgg9]

Originally Posted by JayBell

my KIT guns that i built, are built using Brazilian IMBEL receivers (forged FN licensee) with Austrian STG-58 mint demilled kits on them, plus the US parts.

IMO, if you're going to go the FAL/G3 route, you really should get the receiver from a higher-tier company like Imbel, DSA, etc.

I bought a FAL (L1A1, actually) and a Cetme about 4 - 5 years ago, from Century Arms, and they were both shabbily made. The bolts didn't line up nicely so that you had to wrestle with it to get everything together; triggers were abysmal; and the Cetme front sight was so out of alignment I literally couldn't get it zeroed.

They served their purpose in getting me familiar with those platforms, but I was happy to sell them.

The advantage of buying a domestic rifle is that you're getting something more close to the real thing, not a clone, and by manufacturers who have been doing it for a while. That was one of the reasons I went with M1A ultimately (that, and it just "fit right").

[w1cked]

^While we are on the point, what would a FAL built on an IMBEL receiver fetch? The gun seemed to be in good condition. The guy asked for $699.