PTR 91, CETME OR M1A

[phillyd2]

Wow, tough crowd

I own both a PTR-91K and a M14. Having owned both a HK 91 & 93 in a different life I find the PTR at least as good. The price makes it better but if all things were equal I'd take the original HK. Since all things are not equal I can not think of one negative thing to say about the PTR. Like Jay says, the fit and finish is perfect. I happen to love the diopter sights. The PTR (and my old HK's) are the only such rifles that I've never even considered putting optics on. Heavy? Yeah maybe, heavier than a AR for sure but they are build like a tank. Too heavy? I don't think so. 9.8 LBS with 20 rd Magazine. I love roller system, especially for the .308. Not much of a kick at all. After thousands of rounds (some match but mostly the cheapest surplus I can find) I have had exactly Zero issues and would have no hesitation recommending it to any looking for such a battle rifle. Only mod you may want to consider is a trigger job.

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/gun-pictu...5-hk-91-a.html

The M14 has always had a specail place in my heart and do not think it fair to compare to a PTR / HK. They are just such different animals. Just love the M14 for its functionality, performance and most of all its grace. Like the M1, the M14 is IMHO in a class of its own.

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/gun-pictures-24/39-m14.html

Oh yeah, I did mean to use the word grace:

[K31]

Thanks for all the info guys much appreciated just what I was looking for. I think i'm going to stay away from Century's crap. I have had enough problems with them in the passed and seen more shit guns from them then good ones. Jaybell, Nice rifles bro. Can you get any cheek weld with the collapsing stock? Is it comfortable to shoot? Ken Cran has two of them in stock one with the collapsing stock another with the folding stock but, the length of pull on the folder is way off for me its very uncomfortable. I like the FAL's but I haven't seen one in some time now. How much to build one of your kit guns if you don't mind me asking? Its a tough decision 1300 hundred bucks isn't pocket change although I did just get a bonus check... grin

PS: I would be in divorce court if the old lady read this... HEE HEEE HEE

[K31]

Phillyd2, I never herd of the Surplus City you spoke of how is it and do they have a web site?

[JayBell]

Originally Posted by K31

Thanks for all the info guys much appreciated just what I was looking for. I think i'm going to stay away from Century's crap. I have had enough problems with them in the passed and seen more shit guns from them then good ones. Jaybell, Nice rifles bro. Can you get any cheek weld with the collapsing stock? Is it comfortable to shoot? Ken Cran has two of them in stock one with the collapsing stock another with the folding stock but, the length of pull on the folder is way off for me its very uncomfortable. I like the FAL's but I haven't seen one in some time now. How much to build one of your kit guns if you don't mind me asking? Its a tough decision 1300 hundred bucks isn't pocket change although I did just get a bonus check... grin

PS: I would be in divorce court if the old lady read this... HEE HEEE HEE

the collapsing stock is called the "meat masher" for a reason:-)
the small rubber buttpad is uncomfortable to shoot unless wearing a jacket.
I normally shoot mine with an A2 style fixed stock on the back.
you can get a cheek weld for the iron sights with the collapsing stock, but its not a comfortable one...it doen't hurt, its just not comfy.

the FALs, well, that started way back in 97-98-99 or so, when Imbel receivers were $79, and StG58 kits were running $125..
those days are long over, avg receiver will run $400+ now, and the cherry kits are gone.
I bought all sorts of kits and parts, and built up post ban legal FALs. the normal length one cost under $400 to build, and the carbine cost more, with gunsmithing, and barrel chopping.

both cost even more money later in late 2004 when the ban ended, and i bought the Para kit for the carbine ($400 for the folder kit; stock-bolt carrier-lower) and then BOTH got the flashhiders put back on, and refinished.

at this point, buying one done would be a good idea.

for w1cked: all depends on the quality of the build, and by who, but $600+ for a fixable century arms gun is about avg now.

[K31]

Where can I get a good FAL?

[w1cked]

^ I have read excellent reviews about DSA arms from this ex Delta guy who maintains an informative site (forget the name). They are out of my price range right now though. Think I might pick up the one I saw after all.

[phillyd2]

Originally Posted by K31

Phillyd2, I never herd of the Surplus City you spoke of how is it and do they have a web site?

Surplus City = 302 Bustleton Pike Feasterville, PA 19053 215-364-7130. Next to Southampton. Don't know if they have a web site or not.

[K31]

I have read excellent reviews about DSA arms from this ex Delta guy who maintains an informative site (forget the name). They are out of my price range right now though. Think I might pick up the one I saw after all.
Reply With Quote

Yea, there not much cheaper then the PTR if not more expensive.

Surplus City = 302 Bustleton Pike Feasterville, PA 19053 215-364-7130. Next to Southampton. Don't know if they have a web site or not.
4 Hours Ago 08:45 PM

Thanks. Do they have a good selection in there. Just trying to get an idea so I can justify the drive.

[ScotsGuards]

Go with the M1A. It's a much better quality rifle. SA has continued to manufacture a high quality arm and they stand behind their product 100%.
The PTR-91,while not bad, is a 2nd rate knockoff of a high quality HK on surplus kits. The Hesse rifles are even worse and the worst of the lot are the CETMEs by Century. The CETMEs are not just shoddy but can be downright unsafe as they were made for the Spanish .308 round. This round while having the same dimensions as the 7.62 NATO is much lower powered. I've seen these rifles starting to seperate at the weld on the charging handle tube due to the poor quality of workmanship. I used to think they were a pretty good value till I started to see them come apart like that.
If you are going for a G-3 type rifle, bite the bullet and spend the extra cash for a real H&K or one of the pre-ban, license built rifles from Portugal or Greece. You will not be sorry in the long run.
As for FALs there are some pretty decent clones out there. They range from well done to really horrid. Alot depends on who put it together using which parts. Buyer beware. Of course none of these are up to the quality of the pre-ban Belgian made or license built rifles from Argentina or Brazil. Again, bite the bullet and spend the extra $$$$$. There's a reason why these rifles are more money besides the pre-ban collector syndrome; they are top quality in parts and workmanship.

Respectfully, Jeff G.

[NineseveN]

The PTR-91 rifles are much better than the CETMES. You may get a CETME that works, but in most cases you'll have to work at it. If you prefer not to tinker and/or send the gun away for work to get it right, don't bother spending the money, it's not such a deal when you have to fork over a bunch of money and time to get the thing to run right.

Mags are dirt cheap (often well under $5.00 for brand new mags)

The PTR-91 rifles are nice, AK-like reliable and accurate. They're a bit rough on your brass, so this will make reloading a bit of a pain if you reload.

The ergonomics are a pain for some people. The charging handle is way up by the front sight; some people like it, some hate it. The mag release is a bit awkward as well, getting a paddle mag release put on it helps greatly here. The stock triggers can be a little rough, but a good trigger job will set you back probably under $75 and it will do wonders. Some love the diopter sights, some hate them.

http://www.ptr91.com/
Search on www.thehighroad.org and www.battlerifles.com for PTR-91 info. Also, the HK forums can be of some help, though the maturity level on some of them is a little lacking.



The FAL is also a reliable rifle. Once one is properly up and running, it can go thousands of rounds with no cleaning or maintenance (a rifle nicknamed "ol’ dirty" on www.falfiles.com has gone well over 10,000 rounds without a cleaning and it's been absolutely abused). The ergonomics are generally thought to be pretty good. The safety is in a good location, the charging handle is on the receiver, but on the left side and some people don't like that (they prefer it be on the right like an AK or a M14). DSA makes a ton of nice accessories for the FAL; mags are dirt-cheap as well (often under $10 for new mags, less for used or surplus mags). The triggers can be a little rough on these, they're not sniper rifles, but they're suitable for a battle rifle.

www.falfiles.com
www.dsarms.com
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...threadid=68486



The M14. First, Springfield Armory's M1A is not simply a semi-auto M14, it's not built to military specs, and they have their share of problems (seems like a lot of extraction issues over the last year have been reported). It's still a nice gun for the money, and I generally like SA's products (have three of their 1911's), the warranty is hard to beat (probably the best out of all of the choices so far and one of the best in the industry), so if you don't mind having to send it back if there's an issue or multiple issues, the M1A is a great choice. You'd have to be one of the unlucky ones to have multiple issues with an SA M1A, but it does happen.

The M14 (built in a milspec receiver with milspec parts) is simply an amazing rifle, but some don't like the lack of a pistol grip on it, so they opt for aftermarket stocks with grips and aluminum chassis to help in the accuracy department. This will increase the cost considerably (and having an M14 built is already an expensive proposition -expect to spend around $2,500 to $3000 on it after all is said and done unless you get a really good deal or stick to basic builds and less than mint parts).

The ergonomics can be a slight pain on this gun. The bolt stop/release is high on the left side of the receiver, the mag release is just forward of the trigger guard and the safety lever is inside the trigger guard (this bothers some folks). The charging handle (the Op-Rod) is on the right-hand side. These guns are perhaps a little more accurate than the others when all are in stock configurations. You can have the M14/M1A set up for competition and squeeze some insane accuracy out of them, but it’s going to cost you a ton of money and you may sacrifice some raw reliability in the process. In theory, you could have a FAL or a PTR-91 all decked out for competition as well, it would just cost you a bit more to get the same results.

M14 Mags go about $20 or so for CMI military issue mags; steer clear of most anything else aside from true surplus mags. Some of the others may work, but more often than not, they work poorly.

http://www.m14firinglineforum.com/upload/
http://www.44mag.com/
www.springfieldarmory.com
http://www.warbirdscustomguns.com/
http://www.lrbarms.com/
http://www.smithenterprise.com/
http://www.fulton-armory.com/MARifles.htm




One option you didn’t mention was a .308 AK-style rifle. A .308 Saiga is insanely inexpensive compared to the others, though it comes more in a sporter configuration without a pistol grip or hi-cap mags, but these can be easily converted to EBR status by someone such as Tromix for a reasonable amount of money (and he'll get rid of the standard AK sights which aren't all that great and replace them with HK diopter sights like on the PTR-91). Ergonomics are similar to M14's in where the charging handle and mag releases are, the AK does not have a bolt-hold open feature so there's no bolt stop and the safety is a huge lever on the right hand side of the receiver. It' very basic, but it works. Accuracy won't quite be on par with the others in general, but easy hits to 400 or even 500 meters should be well within the rifle's capabilities if the shooter is up to the task. Hi-cap mags can be very expensive since there are really not a whole lot of places to get them. Right now, the only ones I know of being available are made by FBMG and they're close to $40 for each 20-round magazine IIRC. AK reliability is a huge bonus for this rifle.

http://www.tromix.com/
http://www.fbmginc.com/ (they have Saiga’s for sale as well as the mags and are good people to deal with)
http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showforum=6




In short, they're all great designs, they all work well, they're all reliable, more than battle-accurate and accessories can be had for any of them if you look in the right places. It really just depends on which fits you, your goals and your budget best. You really need to at least handle and shoulder these rifles before you buy if you want to make the most informed decision possible. Good luck.