Interstate ownership, line of possession, gifting

[pex]

If Xavier has his local intrastate FFL send their a copy of its license to a Nevada FFL, and proceeds to pay in the purchase of a rifle from the Nevada FFL, to be mailed to Xavier's local FFL, what is the actual contractual obligation made by that payment?

Consider the background check, and the requirement for success for an FFL to deliver the firearm. Consider further that (I believe) the receiving FFL has entered the firearm into his bound book.

Is the originating FFL obligation to refund according to whatever original terms? What if there are no explicit terms (i.e. how would the UCC apply here, maybe?)

Is the originating FFL in Nevada obligated to sell it to a particular person, or does that obligation only occur for the receiving FFL? Is the receiving FFL obligated to send it back if the person does not get the authorization number from PICS? What if the FFL doesn't want to pay the fee and can't get the potential buyer to pay it?

Can a buyer who has paid for a firearm from Nevada decide to gift 'it' (or would it be essentially gifting the money, having not had the firearm in possession as a result of the deliverance by an FFL) before going through the background check himself, where the person he was gifting either it, or the money, however that may be decided, where the giftee goes through a PICS check?

At all stages of an interstate sale, I am trying to understand what amount of possession/ownership and party has, and their obligations.

[Xringshooter]

pex,
I going to try to answer some of your questions but that may lead (of course) to other questions.

If Xavier has his local intrastate FFL send their copy of its license to a Nevada FFL, and proceeds to pay in the purchase of a rifle from the Nevada FFL, to be mailed to Xavier's local FFL, what is the actual contractual obligation made by that payment?

The seller has a agreement (the bill of sale or credit card receipt may suffice to prove intent by both parties to complete this transaction) to sell Xavier a rifle, to be delivered by a third party (due to Federal law).


Consider the background check, and the requirement for success for an FFL to deliver the firearm. Consider further that (I believe) the receiving FFL has entered the firearm into his bound book.

By law, the receiving FFL has a very limited number of days in which to record the acquisition of a firearm into his bound book. He can't just leave it laying around until he finds time to enter the information. Most, if not all will enter it the day it is received (I know I do). Once it is entered the BATFE considers it as being owned by the FFL, no matter who paid for it.

Is the originating FFL obligation to refund according to whatever original terms? What if there are no explicit terms (i.e. how would the UCC apply here, maybe?)

Most internet gun sellers have specific terms outlined on their site dealing with this possibility. Lacking that, I guess that the seller is under no obligation to refund the money. Also, most bills of sale that I have seen have the fine print outlining what can/will be done. Most gun sellers (not private party) will take a gun back and issue a refund (less a restocking fee). Most private sales that I have seen will allow a 3 day inspection (no firing of gun) and will refund if the person chooses not to buy.


Is the originating FFL in Nevada obligated to sell it to a particular person, or does that obligation only occur for the receiving FFL? Is the receiving FFL obligated to send it back if the person does not get the authorization number from PICS? What if the FFL doesn't want to pay the fee and can't get the potential buyer to pay it?

Well, when the buyer sent the money to the Nev FFL he has contracted with the Nev FFL to buy a specific gun. IMO, The Nev is obligated to send the gun bought or face fraud charges. The receiving FFL is only a transfer point, he "owns" the gun only to the point of the BATFE says he "owns" the gun because it is in his bound book. The receiving FFL is "obligated" to transfer it to the person who paid for it, unless that person is not, by law, allowed to possess the gun. Is the receiving FFL "obligated" to send it back if the person is not allowed to receive it. Don't know to tell the truth, but the gun has already been paid for by the buyer, the receiving FFL is just a transfer agent. If the receiving FFL doesn't return it I suppose he could be prosecuted for theft. If the neither the FFL or the buyer doesn't want to pay then it would be a stalemate until an agreement could be worked out. Myself, I would tell the buyer that I would sell it for him and have a consignment form completed. Or I would have the buyer contact the seller and see how the seller wants to handle the return. It is possible that the seller would refund the money to the buyer, less the shipping costs and then refund the receiving FFL the shipping costs from the original selling price.


Can a buyer who has paid for a firearm from Nevada decide to gift 'it' (or would it be essentially gifting the money, having not had the firearm in possession as a result of the deliverance by an FFL) before going through the background check himself, where the person he was gifting either it, or the money, however that may be decided, where the giftee goes through a PICS check?

In this case I do not believe he would be able to gift the gun before he took possession. The paperwork coming from Nev FFL is going to have a specific name on it and as the receiving FFL I would not deliver it to someone else unless there were extenuating circumstances (I will relate a true story next that may show what I mean). To me, this would have the overwhelming appearance of a straw purchase. Now, if the gifter gave me a legal document that said he was relinquishing his rights to this gun and transferring the rights to the gun to the giftee then I would probably do the transfer (keeping the document with the other paperwork). Although this may also be considered a possible straw purchase as the giftee could walk out of my shop and sell or give it to the gifter. After thinking about this as I write, I really do not know exactly how I would do this transaction.

The story now: A young man ordered 2 AR lowers from a company and asked me to do the transfer, and I agreed. The lowers came in and I contacted him to set the time to do the transfer. Before that date arrived, he was murdered (he was in the wrong place at the wrong time). I did not know this at the time and I just held on to the lowers thinking that he will get in touch (he was a college student). Several months later I received an email from a friend of his telling me what happened and wanted to know what could be done with the lowers. I explained that I could not deal with him at all unless he had paperwork from the estate giving him permission to deal with this matter. Subsequently, I received a message from the father, who was the executor of the estate asking what could be done as the lowers were already paid for. I gave him the option to: sell them himself and the buyer present me with a notarized bill of sale so I could release them, give me permission to sell them (consignment), or return them to the original seller. They opted to have them sent back to the seller. I contacted the seller and explained the circumstances and to get a return authorization. I contacted his father, told him what was needed and how much money I would need to ship them back and how much I spent in phone calls. The father sent me a check to cover all the costs and payment for my time.

If the father (executor) did not want to deal with me, I would have left the lowers in the gun safe until we could come to an agreement or higher powers (probate judge/court) directed me to do something with the lowers.

As far as the BATFE is concerned, as soon as a gun gets entered into my bound book, it is mine. After that it's whatever agreement I have with the person who asked me to do the transfer. In very, very few cases is the agreement anything other than verbal.

I probably muddied the waters for you.

[pex]

I had actually hoped for an FFL or two to chime in not only how they see the law, but how they might view/handle the situations. I do have a few more questions but your response was a very good one.

The bound-book-ownership thing is good to know.

To me, this would have the overwhelming appearance of a straw purchase. Now, if the gifter gave me a legal document that said he was relinquishing his rights to this gun and transferring the rights to the gun to the giftee then I would probably do the transfer (keeping the document with the other paperwork). Although this may also be considered a possible straw purchase as the giftee could walk out of my shop and sell or give it to the gifter. After thinking about this as I write, I really do not know exactly how I would do this transaction.

How can a person prove to an FFL that the chance for liability is lower in cases like this?

If someone has shipped an out-of-state long arm, and let's say they bought with the intent to gift (assume the giftee isn't prohibited and there would be no reason to believe he was; also presume that buying with the intent to gift isn't a straw purchase or whatever ridiculous idea the ATF could come up with) so the purchaser would, in the interstate transfer (although the interstate transfer is actually between FFLs, if they're putting it into bound books and owning it!) go through the background check as the actual possessor. I believe the ATF generally finds it okay to be the actual possessor and then gift it. Then the purchaser gets delayed/denied, and either doesn't do a challenge, doesn't successfully overturn the challenge, or the day for gifting is coming to soon for the guy to wait. We don't know if he's prohibited, only that PICS denied him for whatever reason, and it could be that he is or is not. It's too late by this point to have thought about it and just had the firearm shipped to be PICS'd by the giftee, so what things can the giftee do reduce the FFL's worries?

You mentioned the bill of sale to keep on record. If the giftee is geographically diverse (in PA) from the giftor, would it be easier if a person agreed to transmit to the FFL copies of the next few week's pay stubs and a utility bill (to prove geographic diversity) and make an agreement to offer to stop in maybe 2 times in the next year, or have an FFL or notary or something submit a picture and affidavit to the FFL that the firearm is in the hands of the giftee?

I mean, how does one really prove there's not shenanigans going on?

[Xringshooter]

Bottom line is the FFL that is doing the transfer doesn't know if any shenanigans are going to happen once the gun leaves the shop. If the giftor passes the PICS, the FFL has legally completed his portion of the transfer. If the giftor does something illegal after that, the FFL cannot be held responsible.

However, If the PICS showed denied and the giftor didn't want to take the time to appeal (in the denied case), I would be suspicious, because if it were just going to be a gift, many gifts don't necessarily arrive or are given on time and if the giftor and giftee couldn't wait then that, to me, would be a red flag. Same as if delayed. Delayed could be a matter of hours or days. If they can't wait, something isn't right (yes, there could be some very extenuating circumstances, such as a once in a lifetime safari, etc.). You have to remember that FFL's can go to jail if things aren't done correctly and as such many small shops are overly cautious. But, in that case I would again give the option of me selling it and getting the money to the giftor (and the giftee could be the buyer, but that leads to even more questions like what is the giftor going to do with the money from the sale), or the giftor could contact (or ask me to contact) the seller about returning the gun.

If the giftee is geographically diverse (in PA) from the giftor, would it be easier if a person agreed to transmit to the FFL copies of the next few week's pay stubs and a utility bill (to prove geographic diversity) and make an agreement to offer to stop in maybe 2 times in the next year, or have an FFL or notary or something submit a picture and affidavit to the FFL that the firearm is in the hands of the giftee?

The giftor could also tell me, and back it up with a letter detailing what is going on, to send it directly to the giftee. In that case, the giftee would need to contact me with the address and a copy of the license of the FFL that the giftee would be using for the transfer. The giftees' FFL would do all the paperwork (and the cycle starts over again). Because of the circumstances of it being a "new" purchase, the giftee has to sign the paperwork. I can only send a gun direct to a person if it was a gun that had been sent to me for repair, but not a "new to him" gun (once the FFL has it it is no longer a private sale). Or the giftee could travel to my shop and do the paperwork and if all is ok, he walks out with the gun.

[pex]

Originally Posted by Xringshooter

The giftor could also tell me, and back it up with a letter detailing what is going on, to send it directly to the giftee. In that case, the giftee would need to contact me with the address and a copy of the license of the FFL that the giftee would be using for the transfer. The giftees' FFL would do all the paperwork (and the cycle starts over again). Because of the circumstances of it being a "new" purchase, the giftee has to sign the paperwork. I can only send a gun direct to a person if it was a gun that had been sent to me for repair, but not a "new to him" gun (once the FFL has it it is no longer a private sale). Or the giftee could travel to my shop and do the paperwork and if all is ok, he walks out with the gun.

I guess pushing it off to another FFL makes the most sense. Since it's "yours" according to bound book, you can make the transfer to the other FFL so they can carry out the paperwork. I don't see a reason why the giftee couldn't do a FFL transfer.

[Xringshooter]

I guess pushing it off to another FFL makes the most sense. Since it's "yours" according to bound book, you can make the transfer to the other FFL so they can carry out the paperwork. I don't see a reason why the giftee couldn't do a FFL transfer.

well, I wouldn't call it "pushing it off" it's just a transfer between FFL's. In the hypothetical that we are talking about, the giftor would have to give me permission to send it and pay me what I have to spend to ship it (unless the giftee was going to do that and then I would have to have the shipping money up front). Also, I wouldn't ship it until I got the copy of the FFL's license (that goes in the bound book in the disposition section.

Tell you what, if you're not doing anything this weekend and have a few hours to kill why don't you stop over and I can try to answer your questions and show you what the cycle is from order to receipt to buyer pick up.