Gun advice/ Surplus market/ what to look for

[bigcory18951]

Well hello.. Some of you have seen some of my random posts but consider this my first *real* post.. I am intrested in picking up a few surplus rifles.. i have a german kar98. some of you know that some dont.. but i am looking into possibly a mosin nagant 91/30, enfield, and maybe an M1 is i scrape money up for em.. Im a huge ww2 fan.. i love military rifles in general from that time period. call it an obession i dont know.. I basicly want to know a little more about each rifle, this post is kind of random but ill sperate my 3 questions regarding each rifle,

question 1,

Mosin nagant 91/30. I know there are so many variables out there.. Hexed receivers etc. If i want a nice shooter, decent bore, not counter bored etc, What/ and where do you suggest i look.. i would prefer something All matching, web links, somoene got an extra they dont want? etc etc

question 2

I am not familur with enfields at all but do like how they look and feel.. Same qualities as above, matching if possible/ shootable, accuracy as well.. etc

Question 3
m1 garand.. Ive allways wanted to shoot one/ get my hands on one.. Ive seen the m1 post here about the CMP's and i wanted to get your guys opinion on one before i deside to drop 5-700 on a rifle ive never shot/held before..

I guess im looking for opinions, I'm in the research phase of things.. getting back to work etc, so i have to save a few bucks up.. So in the order of things is how im going to feed my addiction

Thanks for the help and i hope i can still get a ticket to the Sept Eastern Shoot

PS spelling is not one of my best abilities so please bear with me lol! Also wanted to add im probibly one of the youngest on the forums. 19 and i love shooting, so i enjoy learning something new everyday!

[PA Rifleman]

Originally Posted by bigcory18951

...
question 1,

Mosin nagant 91/30. I know there are so many variables out there.. Hexed receivers etc. If i want a nice shooter, decent bore, not counter bored etc, What/ and where do you suggest i look.. i would prefer something All matching, web links, somoene got an extra they dont want? etc etc

All matching isn't as critical as verifying headspace. I have yet to hear of a Mosin blowing up or bursting a casing, but I still check it.

More info:
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/rifles-42...-question.html (Mosin Nagant Russian M44 question)
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q...=2007&safe=off
http://www.google.com/search?complet...ace%22&spell=1
http://www.google.com/search?complet...=Google+Search
http://www.switchbarrel.com/Head.htm
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/rifles-42...lus-rifle.html (How important is it to check the headspace in a Milsurplus rifle?)
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/Gun...x?p=0&t=1&i=41

You should be able to buy a button-style gauge for about $20, assuming you aren't successful finding anyone with a gauge near you.

Gauge sources:
http://www.clymertool.com/headspac/index.html
https://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/st...il.aspx?p=6635
http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/gauges.asp
http://www.midwayusa.com/
http://www.google.com/search?complet...24&btnG=Search

Clymer
Forster
Midway
Brownells

...more...

"Hex" (actually half-octagonal) receivers were made before approximately 1930. Prior to 1930, the manufacturing was done on the old machinery that used the imperial units. For instance, the rear sight elevation unit is the Arshin or Arshine, depending on who you talk to. An Arshin is 71 centimeters or .71 meters, also 2.33 feet.

Around 1930 Russian arms manufacturing went metric, and simplified some of the manufacturing steps. Older 1891 pattern rifles were retrofitted with the newer metric sights. This is why you still find half-octagonal receivers with metric sights. Original Mosins fitted with the Arshin sight are less common, but not impossible to find. They tend to be in poorer condition and have rough bores. There are Mosins around that even pre-date the 1898 modern firearms rule, which means Mosins made between 1891 and December 31, 1898 are in the same classification as black powder guns.

Counterboring is a process that removes the interior surface of the bore at the muzzle for an inch or more down the bore, and reshapes the "crown" where the counterboring stops. It's a dead-giveaway of a major rebuild, and very likely abusive cleaning techniques that led to cleaning rod wear at the muzzle. The Mosin rifle was originally issued with a false muzzle (kit photo link) to prevent this, unfortunately it wasn't always used. So, I avoid counterbored muzzles if I intend to resell later, shoot now or both.

Laminated stocks appeared very late on Mosins in W.W.II, and I suspect they were mostly limited to M1944 carbines. Laminated M1891/30 stocks were less common, laminated M1938s were very rare. And most of the M1938 laminated stocks were M1944 carbine stocks (recess cut for the folding M44 bayonet). There were a few surplus arms peddlers selling laminated M1938s, but all were counterbored. Interestingly, the laminated stock was a stopgap measure to make spare stocks from wood scraps that would have been otherwise unsuitable for gun stocks. The cross grain structure tended to cancel the effect of warping from heat changes and humidity, making these stocks better than the hardwood conventional stocks they replaced. All the M1891/30 laminated stocks that I'm aware of were replaced after the end of W.W.II.

All matching numbers come in two basic flavors, matched and so-called "forced match". Matched can be all original, or incomplete gun with parts later added and machine-stamped after the fact to match. It's hard to tell the difference, particularly if the same stamping machine was used to match the more-recently added parts. Forced match means one or more witness-marked part was misnumbered, most likely from a donor gun elsewhere. The original number was crossed out and a new number was stamped or electro-penciled on the surface. Electro pencilling was done mostly after the end of W.W.II, so it's a good clue the specimen's a post-war rebuild.

• Mosin rifles made or rebuilt after approximately 1930 are found in three major models: M91/30, M1938 and M1944. The 1938 and 1944 are roughly the same rifle, the 1944 has a side-folding bayonet, the 1938 carbine lacks this feature, and does not take a bayonet. While intuition steers many towards selecting the bayonetted model, the 1938 is actually a little better balanced since the bayonet folds on the side of the 1944 (details, photos). There's also been quite a bit of discussion how the bayonet position affects zero on the 1944. I prefer the M1891/30 or the M1938 carbine, and the bayonet on the M1944 makes the carbine feel a little unbalanced to me. Not enough to be problematic, but enough that the M1938 gets first pick in the range case.
• They fire 7.62x54R ammunition. Right now it's still available, but the selection is getting limited to 2-3 choices. The good news is Mosin rifles are miserly with ammunition, so a 440-round tin should last a while. Stock up when you find it cheap, not when you need it.
• If you're not accustomed to rifles, consider trying out a friend's rifle first. Ideally a 22, then work your way up. The 7.62x54R that the Mosin fires is a high-powered rifle round by today's standards. They also have a bit of a report (and recoil) and 1-2 foot fireballs at the M1938 & M1944 carbine muzzle aren't unheard of.
• They're not suitable for telescopic sights due to the receiver design. If you want a scope on your Mosin, buy a sniper variant with a steel base. Some are aluminum, avoid these like the plague. (details) Another option is aftermarket scope mounts that replace the rear sight, you'll need to look around to see whether people like these or not.
• Check head clearance (definition) before firing for the first time. (details)
• Purchasing selection points - I usually ask for all matching witness numbers and avoid counterbored muzzles. It's a cosmetic issue since I want them to retain as much collectible value as possible. Also, laminated stocks seem to have a little more collector interest than the original hardwood stock.
• Please familiarize yourself with bolt disassembly and reassembly, and also setting firing pin protrusion before firing your Mosin.

There are a dizzying array of Mosin variants prior to the M1891/30, and when you add the variations on markings and manufacturers, it expands the field even more. This tends to be a subjective matter among collectors, and I'll leave it at that.

Reading assignment:
http://www.mosinnagant.net/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin-Nagant
http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/
http://7.62x54r.net/

There are too many web pages to list in the time I have to type this post, so I'll let you browse a google search result for yourself:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

I'll ponder the Garand question when I have more time, as I'm needed elsewhere right now.

Mosin humor:
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinHumor.htm

[s.vermeire]

SteveWag should be able to give you some decent info on the M1 and CMP program. Shoot him a PM and tell him his nephew sent you.

[Xringshooter]

I just got an M1, Service Grade, from CMP. The barrel and throat erosion were well less that what the sdaid it may be. To me it is well worth the $600 I paid for it. I'm typically more interested in modern guns but I've always wanted an M1, And I am thrilled to death the condition this one is in.

[wizzegun]

1. Mosin 91/30 For your 1st one don't worry about collectability. I would get all matching numbers or at least matching bolt/receiver. A good bore meaning defined lands and grooves is all you need. The Russkies did headspace when they rearsenaled their weapons and have yet to find one with headspace issues (although I'm sure somebody will have a different story.) I would buy one that catches your eye.

2. Enfield. Are you looking for a No 1 Mk III (generally WWI style) or the No 4 Mk I (the WWII style)? These are a different story with headspace. I would say definately get matching numbers on receiver and bolt but that is still no guarantee. The Brits made different sized bolt heads to deal with the issue. These can be a crap shoot but so are most milsurps. Knowledge is your best weapon....and luck is a close second. Some good reading. http://enfieldrifles.profusehost.net/

3. For a Garand, CMP all the way if your new to the scene. These are serviced and tested before they are shipped. It's also the best price you will find anywhere. There are alot of hurdles to jump but it's worth it.

Good luck and let us know what you find.

[Penguini66]

Mosin: Most importantly...if you plan to shoot it at all. Buy ammo in bulk NOW or yesterday if you have a time machine. Don't concern yourself with "corrosive" ammo. Just do a little bit of googling and read about how to properly clean after a corrosive trip to the range.

[bigcory18951]

WOW is all i have to say.. VERY imformative! a little backround on me... Im a HUGE fan of the 2nd world war.. which is why i bought a geman mauser.. ive allways wanted one.. so i bought one.. but its starting to become a bit exspencive to shoot.. so i decided to feed my addiction.. The mosin, ive shot one before, Mean mothers as i say but fun to shoot!, the Enfield, i do like them but like you said.. headspace issues you gotta watch for.. my Gunsmith has told me if you buy a mosin your cleaning the cosmoline! lmao.. Hes been there and done that.. as he says. But i do thank all your info and opinions and as allways more dont hurt.. im intrested in the m1 and the mosin the most.. but seeing how im reasearching ill read whats here.. and go from there.. Thanks guys PA rifleman.. very well writtin i sent ya a rep point for that! gave me some homework!

[wizzegun]

Be careful buying Mosins. They are like potato chips...you can't have just one! Next thing you know, you will "need" a M44, M38, a sniper and don't get me started about the Finn Mosins.

[Pector55]

Having lots of Mosins is great because you only have to buy one type of ammo so it becomes very cost effective to buy in bulk. The downside to WWII guns is that they almost all use something different so variety adds a lot of cost in ammo. The guns are rather cheap as well.

I like my Garand but that $600 will easily get you 4 Mosins and 1000 rds of 7.62x54R ammo.

[PA Rifleman]

Originally Posted by wizzegun

Be careful buying Mosins. They are like potato chips...you can't have just one! Next thing you know, you will "need" a M44, M38, a sniper and don't get me started about the Finn Mosins.

This is one of the big urban myths floating around. In these photos you can clearly see that the Mosins just barely cover the door. Therefore, not a problem.*



Welcome to the W.W. II club, the last true crusade.

* Okay, before someone recognizes this photo - I'll admit this is just what was in my office on the day I cleaned it. The rest of the Mosins, AKs, etc were scattered in other cabinets and rooms elsewhere.