Amount of weapons before FFL required?

[dc dalton]

My son asked me this last night:

How many weapons can you own before they (who THEY is he didn't say) make you get an FFL?

I told him I didn't think there was any limit, artificial or not BUT then I remembered a conversation I had a month ago with the guys from Warner's Surplus. We were talking about a guy that does shows (ammo) from NJ and they told me "He had so many weapons they forced him to get an FFL"

Now that may have been NJ but FFLs are issued by the federal government (right?) .. so now I am debating the answer I gave my son. Is there a limit?

[Pa. Patriot]

No limit to ownership in PA

FFL is the federal license for "dealing" in firearms.

[General Geoff]

So long as you're only habitually buying, and not habitually selling. The ATF has historically slammed down hard on folks without FFLs who just happen to have a lot of guns and were selling more than one or two at a time, or selling one every week.

[GunLawyer001]

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

No limit to ownership in PA

FFL is the federal license for "dealing" in firearms.

Exactly right. Furthermore, not only is he not required to get an FFL just for owning many guns, he's not allowed to get an FFL unless he intends to make sales. He has to intend to engage in the business of selling firearms or else the Feds will suspect some sort of tax evasion. He also has to have a licensed premises, establish business hours, etc.

Back in the 1970's ATF used to hand out FFL's for guys who were not really in the business, just to be on the safe side and avoid any possible problems over selling a few personal guns from time to time. That's not the case anymore.

[MikeB0]

If there is a limit I hope it is a very large number, lol.

There is no legal limit to the number of Firearms one can own in PA or under Federal law.

[ham385]

I'm wondering if there might be something lost in the translation from all the he said, she said. I suspect he was buying and selling alot - you did mention a lot of gunshows. Probably a CYA to prevent nasty accusations about dealing without a license.

[pex]

You can buy and sell a lot without a FFL so long as it's not a devotion of considerable time and effort for the purpose of a livelihood. (I mean, that's what the statutes say.)

[Xringshooter]

It's probably more on how the person is buying and selling the guns that makes the difference. If the person is buying and immediately selling the guns, the BATFE could construe that as "being in the business of dealing in guns". There are collectors of modern firearms that buy and sell all the time to build up or refine their collections. This is perfectly legal as they are not doing it as a business. However, if you don't have any kind of a collection and are consistantly buying and selling, the BATFE might (probably will) question what you are doing. If you can answer their questions so that they satisfied they will leave you alone.

[Dredly]

You are talking about some different stuff...

If this guy is selling reloads at gun shows I think some type of FFL is required as you cannot make and sell ammo without the correct permit (I believe). There may also be insurance requirements as well.

**That is for selling your own manufactured ammo, there is also a tax on ammo that you load to sell if I remember correctly.

As for buying guns... nope. But you may run into issues depending on how and how many you are selling. I don't think there is a set number but I'm sure if your name starts showing up on 4 - 5 transfers a week someone is going to want to speak with you.

as for FFL's they are "federal" however the local ATF office issues them so they are federal w/ a states mentality if you will. So for example in NJ you get an FFL from the gov however the NJ gov't has enough weight to get them yoinked... example: Sarco Inc which had an employee steal a bunch of guns... more then likely if this would have happened somewhere else that was much more gun friendly they would have probably been slapped with a fine as long as they swore out a complaint against the thief. In NJ they lost their license to export weapons and can only sell in person to NJ residents.

[Xringshooter]

I won't comment on NJ firearms laws, I don't deal in guns in NJ. Nor will I comment on the Sarco case as I have no first hand knowledge of the situation. However,

Here are the types of licenses issued by the BATFE. ALL BATFE licenses come from the licensing center in Atlanta, GA. The BATFE WILL NOT issue a license unless the business meets all of its criteria. Some of the things they look for: Do you meet all state and local requirements, do you have a set place of business (it does not have to be a store front, it can be in a home as long as you have permission from the local government, this I know as I operate my business from my home), what are your business hours, etc. In PA the state license to deal in guns comes from the Sheriffs Office. As a dealer you must also meet any/all local ordinances:

Type 01 -DEALER in firearms other than destructive devices.
(includes: rifles, shotguns, pistols, revolvers, gunsmith activities, and National
Firearms Act (NFA) weapons.) 18 U.S.C 923(a)(3)(B)
Fee: $200.00 for the first three (3) years. $90.00 on renewal. Application: ATF Form 7 (5310.12)

Type 02 -PAWNBROKER in firearms other than destructive devices.
(includes: rifles, shotguns, pistols, revolvers, gunsmith activities, and National
Firearms Act (NFA) weapons.) 18 U.S.C 923(a)(3)(B)
Fee: $200.00 for the first three (3) years. $90.00 on renewal. Application: ATF Form 7 (5310.12)

Type 03 -COLLECTOR OF CURIOS AND RELICS.
(pertains exclusively to firearms classified as curios and relics, and it's purpose is to facilitate a personal collection. It is NOT a license to buy and sell curios and relics. 18 U.S.C 923(b)
Fee: $30.00 for three (3) years. Application: ATF Form 7 CR (5310.16)

Type 06 - MANUFACTURER OF AMMUNITION FOR FIREARMS
other than ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition. 18 U.S.C 923(a)(1)(C)
Fee: $30.00 for three (3) years. Application: ATF Form 7 (5310.12)

Type 07 - MANUFACTURER OF FIREARMS other than destructive devices. 18 U.S.C 923(a)(1)(B)
Fee: $150 for three (3) years. Application: ATF Form 7 (5310.12)

Type 08 -IMPORTER OF FIREARMS other than destructive devices
or AMMUNITION FOR FIREARMS other than destructive devices, or ammunition other than armor piercing ammunition.
NOTE: Importers of handguns and rifles MUST register with ATF under the provisions of the Arms Export Control Act. Contact the Firearms and Explosives Imports Branch at 8320 (304) 616-4550 or see the web page: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/feib/index.htm for further information on registration. 18 U.S.C 923(a)(2)(B)
Fee: $150.00 for three (3) years. Application: ATF Form 7 (5310.12)

Type 09 -DEALER IN DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES. 18 U.S.C 923(a)(3)(A)
Fee: $3,000.00 for three (3) years. Application: ATF Form 7 (5310.12)

Type 10 -MANUFACTURER OF DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AMMUNITION
FOR DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES OR ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION. 18 U.S.C 923(a)(1)(A)
Fee: $3,000.00 for three (3) years. Application: ATF Form 7 (5310.12)

Type 11 IMPORTER OF DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AMMUNITION FOR
DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES OR ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION. 18 U.S.C 923(a)(2)(A)
Fee: $3,000.00 for three (3) years. Application: ATF Form 7 (5310.12)


If the person was selling ammo that he reloaded (manufactured) he would have to have a Class 6 FFL. The amount of guns he has has nothing to do with this. Now, if he were selling a lot of guns at a show it would probably be questioned but if he were selling off his personal collection, and he could prove that, then that is perfectly legal. If he could not prove that then he might be in a bit of trouble.