Is there a plausible defense for this?

[djturnz]

I have noticed what may be a new trend in robberies and attacks. The way we've all been taught that an attack will go down may no longer be the case. In magazine articles, TV shows, and even in Action Pistol events the method used by the "attacker" is usually one of the following, or at least similar. Guy is 3 to 21 feet away threatening you with a knife or gun. He says "give me your wallet or else". That is supposed to be the "typical" scenario for a "street robbery". Or even a guy asks for directions to get close to you at the gas pump and make you think he is ok, then tries to grab you.

The trend I am seeing is different though. One of the first things I have seen to illustrate this trend is the YOUTUBE video where the kid sucker punches the guy at the counter. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlP9-8f5YpE
It can be argued in this instance to say that the guy saw the kid and should have moved away, or kept a better eye on him. But he couldn't very well stare at the kid, this could have caused a confrontation. Also, watching him in his peripheral (which is how I probably would have handled it) is fine except when he reaches for his wallet and you jump and try to guard yourself. Then you just look stupid AND could possibly cause a confrontation. "Damn old man, why are you so jumpy around ni&&@s!"

Another situation was one that I heard from a guy that lives in my town. He was in Atlantic City. As he described it, he walked down the ramp from the boardwalk toward his hotel. He heard a voice behind him say "excuse me". As he turned, he was struck in the chest and fell backwards, hitting his head on the concrete. He said he doesn't know if he was punched, kicked or hit with an object, AND he never even saw his attacker. Now as he laid on the sidewalk, slipping in and out of consciousness, he felt two people going through his pockets. They stole his wallet, cell phone and shoes.

Given that I don't know the layout of area he spoke of, nor his level of situational awareness. He had been drinking, but I don't know how drunk he was. So maybe that's the whole problem, and this is nothing. In this situation, I would assume that situational awareness is the key. Chances are, unless he was very visibly drunk, just him noticing the guy[s] may have stopped the attempt and they simply would have waited for an easier target. Or at least gave him an opportunity to defend himself.

In all the "training" that I have had or read, the situational awareness portion pre-conditions "tells" that a person has something bad in their mind. But what about when the first real sign of trouble is the moment the fist is flying? I understand that most of you may say "I'd block it" or "I'd duck."
The problem with that is, you are trying to react to his action, that is already half complete. I don't think anyone is that fast. Martial Artists train to block strikes, but they already know a strike is coming, they just have to figure out what type of strike and where. What if, at a restaurant, you are waiting in the crowded lobby for a table to become available. You are talking to your wife and another name gets called. A group of people get up and the crowd parts just enough for the group to walk through and up to the hostess. As they walk by you, one of them throws a wild punch toward the side of your head. There really isn't much you can do against this. You could argue that people around you, maybe your wife, would not allow him to rob you once you fell. Or even that your wife who carries and is a much better shot than you would shoot him before he even landed the punch. I doubt ANYONE is that fast, except maybe Bob Munden. lol

You might be able to argue that the guy would be acting funny or clenching his fists or something that you might notice ahead of time. But I think that any of that would be a reaction to stress or anxiety over what he is about to do. What if he has already done this 10 times before and is so comfortable with it that he shows no outward signals. Situational awareness can only get you so far, and it's not like you can walk around everywhere with a 6 foot "bubble" of open space and never have anyone walk or stand too close.

What is the defense against this? I certainly can't think of one. But I guess that's the point. It's like the SWAT team that throw flash-bangs after breaching a door. It's all about surprise. Getting the drop on someone that wasn't expecting it. How could you suspect it? I see all sorts of punks that look just like that kid at McDonalds. Most of them are "wish-I-was-a-Thugs" and are no more hardcore than a high school band geek (no offense to the former band geeks out there). You can't be jumpy about everyone that walks past you at the mall.

What are your thoughts?

I am posting this in a couple different forums to get the ideas from more than one "hive", as they call it on ARF.

[Philadelphia]

Originally Posted by djturnz

What is the defense against this?

Unfortunately, your only real defense is to either lock yourself away in your house or learn to take a punch. Unless they guy turns out your lights, it's only pain. That pain should make you angry, not passive. Why would you be on the ground hoping your wife was carrying? Get on your feet and TCB before the guy really clobbers you.

[Lycanthrope]

Defense will never be as good as an equally prepared for offense.

There are just some scenarios you will not be able to provide for and not lose quality of life. The DC sniper comes to mind..........

Lycanacceptandliveonthrope

[fingers80002]

You prepare for a situation that you might encounter, criminals are unpredictable!!!
adapt,and overcome, if possible.
When all else fails, PUNT!!!!!!!!!

[Jup06]

I think the main thing is just to never let anyone get too close to you.

What martial artists (and I'm not talking about the guys who spent $1000 at Tiger Schulmans for a black belt) do is relax their muscles as if they were meditating. This releases the antagonistic tension in the muscle allowing a quicker reaction time. It takes a shitload of practice to do this while moving, or even standing up for that matter, let alone while in a fight. This is also while one beer increases your reaction time too. Shhh, don't tell MADD.

Another thing you can practice is wide-angle sight. Most people have no idea what this can do for your peripheral vision. You'll notice when an animal is aware of you, they rarely look directly at you (focus on you) because that would destroy their peripheral. To explain it, you do not focus on any one thing, basically the infinite setting on a camera lens. Try it at night, you'll see things you normally wouldn't notice.

[noofus]

Originally Posted by djturnz

Martial Artists train to block strikes, but they already know a strike is coming, they just have to figure out what type of strike and where.

If your Martial Arts class is teaching you to block strikes in a self defense situation, leave, and find a class that will teach you effective self defense.

You are correct - you will never see it coming. Unless you are in a ring with gloves on and a ref. Since we arent talking sport fighting, "blocking" punches is irrelevant.

Would you "block" someone swinging a tire iron at you? If not, why would you learn to "block" their arms/legs if you cant even see the attack in the first place?

Situational awareness is 90% of self defense. I never, repeat, never, walk close to people if I cant be sure of their intentions. Remember, most people are just walking along, doing their own business. Someone who wants to do you harm is going to make it obvious (to a trained eye). Of course someone who is trained (or just experienced) in giving people a bad day wont make themselves ovbious - and thats a different situation.

One type of attack - you are somehow alone, its probably dark, and there is a guy or a group of guys loitering in a place they probably have no reason to loiter in. This should click off something in your mind - go elsewhere, put distance between you and him/them. If they start coming towards you, you should have options to move.

Someone experienced in giving people bad days very well could be hiding so you wont spot them. Hiding behind dumpsters or in alleys. Waiting for a victim to walk by in Condition White. Dont walk near alleys, or too close to corners you cant see around.

[WellArmedLiberal]

What others have said: if your awareness fails, best defense against the sucker punch or any overwhelming force is to have sparred or practiced fighting in a style with enough contact so that it's not a novel event, so you go oh yeah, that, purple spots on a black background, the smack of a tambourine...oh yeah *that*, now here comes your payback, initiating mofo.

[Hawk]

Originally Posted by noofus

If your Martial Arts class is teaching you to block strikes in a self defense situation, leave, and find a class that will teach you effective self defense.

Why would you say this? What (according to you) is the appropriate response/reaction?

Originally Posted by noofus

Since we arent talking sport fighting, "blocking" punches is irrelevant.

Disagree, again, what is your response to a punch?

Originally Posted by noofus

Would you "block" someone swinging a tire iron at you?

Yes, otherwise it's your head that gets struck -game over!

Originally Posted by noofus

Situational awareness is 90% of self defense.

Agreed! BTW, just out of curiosity, what are your credentials/experience to support your advice?

[noofus]

Originally Posted by Hawk

Why would you say this? What (according to you) is the appropriate response/reaction?



Disagree, again, what is your response to a punch?



Yes, otherwise it's your head that gets struck -game over!



Agreed! BTW, just out of curiosity, what are your credentials/experience to support your advice?

If someone is swinging a tire iron at you - and you block it...the only thing that will happen is your arm breaks. I dont know about you but if my arm is broken, its going to be damn hard to continue fighting successfully. If you try to "block" the arm as its striking you with the tireiron (bat, stick, knife, etc) unless you know exactly where to stop it then the weapon will continue on rotating. Solution: dont be where the weapon is going.

Response to a punch should not be a block but a redirection. By blocking you only contest for the space your opponent is trying to take. Let him take it, dont be there. It takes alot of training to do this right - I never said it was supposed to be easy.

I have been training in Jujitsu and self defense for the past 17 years. This includes edged weapons as well as blunt force weapons. While I havent been in a fight in my adult life, I know my skills have diffused many - and I have broken up a few between other people. As a teenager I was in enough scuffles to know what works and what doesnt...

[justashooter]

a true sociopath will be able to sucker-punch in any situation, because he has a distorted autonomic nervous response. he will smack you hard without warning of a normal kind. you will not be able to read him at all unless you know what to look for. his only marker is a generally heightened mood, almost euphoric, as he anticipates completion of his aggression cycle, savoring the climactic moment even precipitantly. often he will hop up and down for no reason, or even sing bablingly to himself.

most of the rest of us are not wired that way. we have parasympathetic nervous response. when we are posturing but not really ready to go to town, our face gets red, we perspire, and we hyperventilate. these responses to shed adrenaline from our system.

when we are ready to dance, we go white faced, breathing becomes more regular, and we stop perspiring, so taking on a rather serene appearance. we allow the adrenaline to build, allow our body temperature to increase, and allow the respiratory to slow, because our blood is already oxygenated, and we are about to use it's potential.

we strike with just as much violence, if we allow our body to fully overcome our inhibitions (one beer effect). we are calm after the act, if we can validate and thereby are not traumatised by the event. we are not suprised at our actions.

so the lesson is, if you're walking down the street and are approached by a guy who seems to be just a little bit too happy, or eager, turn away before he gets too close. if you're walking down the street, and someone starts yelling at you and gets all red in the face, don't worry so much until he seems to calm down, and the color drains from his face. when this starts to happen, talk is over. you have only two choices. you can hit him first, or you can make haste.