Handgun rankings

[Ol' Fart]

jadam8304,

Looks like you've gotten some good responses to your question. As a Noob, I'd like to offer my .02. As a longtime Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer I definately agree with staying within the Glock family. Switching calibers won't be a significant training issue, switching gun families would be. Most Cops aren't gun enthusiasts, so require frequent repetitive training. A gun to them has no more significance than an ink pen, until they need it.

I went through this transition many years ago when we switched from the S&W 59 9mm to the Glock 40. While the Glocks are much more user friendly than the S&W the transition time took about 4 mos. of regular training.

While I disagree with the comment about Colt 45's reliability being of concern, the single action training time for the average Cop would be off the charts. There is also a significant liability issue for the Dept. From an Armorer's standpoint, the Glock has a significant advantage in that there aren't fitted parts. Just throw in a replacement part and you're good to go. Repairs take minutes as opposed to hours and days.

Just my .02.

[jadam8304]

DGG9

Through research that I have already done, The .45 caliber is said to have a harder impact (kinetic force) and a better one shot stopping record than the .40 caliber.

Jay50H

I do not want to imply I want the 1911 series handguns. I only want an unbias thought on the weapons I listed. I do not want training, cost and other issues to be involved with your assesment of the quailty and reliability of the weapons. I just want a clean answer on what your choice would be for the best availble handgun on the market. Training costs, gear and policy do not concern me nor my department administrators. Reliablity and accuracy are the top two concerns.

[dgg9]

Originally Posted by jadam8304

DGG9

Through research that I have already done, The .45 caliber is said to have a harder impact (kinetic force) and a better one shot stopping record than the .40 caliber.

1. KE has zero relation to stopping power, and in any event, most .40S&W has MORE KE than most .45ACP.
2. The term "one shot stop" is mostly associated with Marshall and Sanow, whose figures have been completely debunked.
3. OSS aside, no one should base caliber decisions on single round of this vs single round of that comparisons. Shootings typically require more than one round, hence having twice as much capacity (G22 vs 1911) should at least enter into the equation. Also, shootability and controllability across your entire PD (all body types and hand sizes and grip strengths and levels of training) should be maximized.
4. For LE, there's also factors of barrier penetration, etc, to take into account when deciding.

Most caliber "common knowledge" is based on fallacy and misinformation.

[dgg9]

Originally Posted by jadam8304

Training costs, gear and policy do not concern me nor my department administrators.

Sounds very unrealistic, but whatever, it's your thread. However, training results should concern you. You can force every patrolman through training in a new platform -- that doesn't mean they're going to all be dedicated enough to practice the new manual of arms, ongoing. The amount of ongoing practice needed to be fluid and unconsciously competent in a single action gun is far more than a Glock. Yearly or quarterly re-certs will not guarantee that. That's why you see 1911s (almost) only in LE groups comprised of elite shooters to begin with, who practice constantly as part of their charter -- SWAT, HRT, ets.

Reliablity and accuracy are the top two concerns.

If you want reliability, then service pistols like Glock, Sig, etc edge out 1911s. This is magnified by the real-world LE aspects of: a lot of carry in the elements and non-dedicated maintenance.

Combat accuracy for all guns in your list is more than adequate. 1911s might have a few percent more inherent mechanical accuracy than other service pistols, but a) not one shooter in 1000 can consistently shoot up to the levels of any gun, and b) that last little molecule of Ransom Rest accuracy is completely irrelevant to most real world shooting scenarios. The far more important criterion is that the pistol, which has been sitting unfired in the holster for 4 months, gathering sweat, lint, and dirt for all that time, actually fire when the trigger is pulled.

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by jadam8304

I do not want training, cost and other issues to be involved with your assesment of the quailty and reliability of the weapons. I just want a clean answer on what your choice would be for the best availble handgun on the market. Training costs, gear and policy do not concern me nor my department administrators. Reliablity and accuracy are the top two concerns.

I find this puzzling.

Your's has to be the first LE agency in the history of the world that isn't taking into account training costs (e.g. transition to a new platform), gear and policy.

That and the fact that you're making inquiries on an internet discussion board.

What department do you work for ........ local PD ........ Montgomery County? You mentioned in another reply your also a member of your PD's tactical unit?

[Frenchy]

Originally Posted by jadam8304

DGG9

Through research that I have already done, The .45 caliber is said to have a harder impact (kinetic force) and a better one shot stopping record than the .40 caliber.

Why did this spook me? Dont get me wrong, I fully understand your intent here, stop the bg before he can shoot back. This is mainly accomplished by hitting the BG...
But to state it as if the kill factor between 40 and 45 was so different as to make a deal of it... Studies have shown modern bullets in 9mm to 45 with the 40 included where not significant enough to warrent a change in arms.

I remember in Quebec when the PD in my area changed from S&W .357 to Ruger, there was such a little change, yet the guys did not feel comfy with it. Some thing about seeing the hammer and the firing pin made them comfy.. Then in quick step, they moved to the Glock, many of the officers where outraged. This was years ago, and I suppose the older cops got used to the whole thing by now.

Changing guns in a dept will always be rough, there is not only the comfort zone associated with a gun, there is the overall uniformity of it. If you get a new gun, many will start yammering they dont feel comfy with the new grip, the sights are not the same... You heard this all before I am sure. But you cant have 2 or 3 kinds of gun out there.. Unless they all use the same mag/bullet.
When ever I heard changes being made in a dept, and this happened a few times since when I was in Quebec we had a range where many Police shot, there was always many concerns that came about. From the Brass, it was always stopping power, from the shields, ease of use. Now when you come down to it, would you prefer to have your officers happy, or your officers unhappy about the change. If "Stoping power" is a factor, get them allowances to shoot in a nearby club if the station has no area to shoot at now. You will find most officers are more interested in placing few shots and stopping some one, then to carry some thing they are not %100 comfy with.

Ive seen cops in Quebec carry a Glock and 2 speed loaders... when asked why they did this, they always replied cause my backup is the gun I prefer to hold. When asked "but are you not satisfied with the Glock and its superior power" they said Since when was 9mm superior to .357?

Just food for thought, ask your men what they like most, lots of bullets lots of firepower, or fewer bullets but comfy at shooting them. Then propose your list of guns and see what they choose. You might be surprised at what they do.

[JustinM]

"Reliablity and accuracy are the top two concerns."

PROPER TRAINING SHOULD BE THE TOP PRIORITY FOR YOUR DEPT!!!



You can give them all the 1911's they want, and without training, they will be at a HUGE disadvantage.

A TRAINED man with a damn .380 ACP would have a the advantage over your UNTRAINED cops with their .45's any day.

I can't believe what I'm reading.

[cigarman]

I understand the State Police are going with Glocks in .45 GAP. Possibly you could verify that.

Personally, I am not a Glock guy and had a XD for about 3 hours and hated the trigger so much I returned it.

I'm a SIG man myself, but they cost twice the Glock. Both are known for reliability.

I would stick with a firearm that has available repair and upgrades. For that reason I wouldn't consider the 1911 and while I love my H&Ks, they are out also.

[vetter3006]

Originally Posted by jmateer

"Reliablity and accuracy are the top two concerns."

PROPER TRAINING SHOULD BE THE TOP PRIORITY FOR YOUR DEPT!!!



You can give them all the 1911's they want, and without training, they will be at a HUGE disadvantage.

A TRAINED man with a damn .380 ACP would have a the advantage over your UNTRAINED cops with their .45's any day.

I can't believe what I'm reading.

I have to agree proper training and practice is all it takes.
I like the smith and wesson M+P but it's to new and glock has been aroung the block and has parts and everything else you need after market.

[SSGF109]

This is a no brainer! GLOCK 21!!!!!!! Hands down. This model and caliber have been field proven fight stoppers. I wish I was able to use one in Iraq.