Expert advice on selecting a handgun

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by JoeWilliams

That article is full of outright common sense.

Yes it is.

And none of it is earth shattering or ground breaking. These axioms have been accepted standards for decades within the training industry.

Gabe does spin the caliber debate in a new and interesting way but even at that, Col. Cooper's advocacy of the 1911 as the pre-eminent fighting pistol with respect to caliber always seems to overshadow the fact that he always advocated using "a pistol in the largest caliber you can control".

Gabe has a knack for taking "old" information and repackaging it as his own.

Be that as it may, I encourage everyone to consider the information as it is good "old" stuff.

I am not a proponent of magazine capacity simply for the sake of magazine capacity. Far too many people own handguns that are too large for their hand size. And the argument of multiple threats is overblown. IMHO, if you are assaulted by multiple armed threats, you don't need more bullets, what you need is some friends with guns.

It is not realistic to think that at the moment of truth, we'll suddenly turn into "the outlaw Josey Wales" and engage and dispatch multiple armed threats at will.

Ask yourself a question, have you ever trained for such a contingency? If the answer is "no", then in spite of your magazine capacity, what are your chances for survival?

[synergy]

Originally Posted by TonyF

I am not a proponent of magazine capacity simply for the sake of magazine capacity. Far too many people own handguns that are too large for their hand size. And the argument of multiple threats is overblown. IMHO, if you are assaulted by multiple armed threats, you don't need more bullets, what you need is some friends with guns.

I like having them around all the time, having more rounds in your gun is never a bad thing.

It is not realistic to think that at the moment of truth, we'll suddenly turn into "the outlaw Josey Wales" and engage and dispatch multiple armed threats at will.

This appears to look like giving up, from where I'm sitting. That's like advocating taking the life rafts off of airplanes, cause if they crash... we're probably f*ed anyway. I don't buy into such rational, I want the best fighting tool I can have.

Ask yourself a question, have you ever trained for such a contingency? If the answer is "no", then in spite of your magazine capacity, what are your chances for survival?

Hopefully this dialog makes people think about training this stuff too....I'd rather select a gun I can fight with, then learn how to fight well with that gun....than buy a 5 shot revolver, take a course with it, realize it sucks, then have to go buy ANOTHER gun...then re-train with that!

Most people find the Glock 19 easier to conceal than a 5" 1911. That's 16 rounds versus 9....most people who shoot can put rounds on target faster with a 9mm then they can with a .45.

Mag capacity aids in more than multiple targets....and it lets you hopefully finish the fight with rounds still left in your gun. Say you have to shoot in self defense against an armed robber...what says his buddy waiting in the car to give him a ride doesn't get out after he watches you shoot his friend?

Like its been said before "No one ever lost a gunfight because they had a few extra BB's in their gun."

Apparently the D-Boys felt roughly the same, as they ditched their 1911's(8+1 round capacity) for G22's (15+1 round capacity)

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by synergy

I like having them around all the time, having more rounds in your gun is never a bad thing.

More ammo is better. All I'm arguing is that it isn't the "be all and end all" that people think it is. Look at your example in the shoothouse. If that were a real life encounter and I were you in that situation, I'd trade in my Hi Cap Glock for a J Frame in a heartbeat if I could have Lycan and his buddy Doug Sestock backing me up.

This appears to look like giving up, from where I'm sitting. That's like advocating taking the life rafts off of airplanes, cause if they crash... we're probably f*ed anyway. I don't buy into such rational, I want the best fighting tool I can have.

It's not giving up. It's being realistic. But I will tell you that I'm sure not going to download my 1911 or my Glock just to prove my point.

Hopefully this dialog makes people think about training this stuff too....I'd rather select a gun I can fight with, then learn how to fight well with that gun....than buy a 5 shot revolver, take a course with it, realize it sucks, then have to go buy ANOTHER gun...then re-train with that!

This is the untold story behind formal training. Rounding out gear that we "thought" was GTG only to find significant deficiencies that the gunshop clerk never mentioned because he was also ill-informed.

Most people find the Glock 19 easier to conceal than a 5" 1911. That's 16 rounds versus 9....most people who shoot can put rounds on target faster with a 9mm then they can with a .45.

But it's all relative to the situation at hand. I can use a counter argument that since the reset on a 1911 is shorter than a glock, I can shoot faster hammers. Where does the minutia of these aspects of the discussion get us? Answer: nowhere.

Mag capacity aids in more than multiple targets....and it lets you hopefully finish the fight with rounds still left in your gun. Say you have to shoot in self defense against an armed robber...what says his buddy waiting in the car to give him a ride doesn't get out after he watches you shoot his friend?

We could go back and forth with multiple examples to support our respective points of view but IMHO, not many get-away drivers, cretins and low life's that they are, would stick around to help their criminal buddy in such a situation. More than likely he'd burn rubber and get the hell out of Dodge.

Apparently the D-Boys felt roughly the same, as they ditched their 1911's(8+1 round capacity) for G22's (15+1 round capacity)

I'd have a bunch of neat toys too if someone else was willing to pay for them. IOW, I don't think any of us know precisely what conclusions can be drawn from the fact that some Delta teams are using G22's.

ETA: Blue text to clarify that Lycan and Doug would have to be armed.

[Mtbkski]

Great article. And good responses. Love it when you make us all think. To many of us just take our buddies advice as gospel and leave it at that. These kind of easy to read, and informative articles are really good for all that carry. And I love it when we get varying opinions from really informed individuals. Keep it up guys.

Oh, this is why I got the 40 cal mags for my 9mm Subcompact. It increased my magazine capacity 3 more rounds. You just never know.

[synergy]

Originally Posted by Mtbkski

Oh, this is why I got the 40 cal mags for my 9mm Subcompact. It increased my magazine capacity 3 more rounds. You just never know.

Don't you think that if it were that simple to give the gun 3 more rounds, without sacrificing reliability, that Glock would have done that by now?

What...you put a 9mm follower in a 27 or 23 magazine? Sounds like your rolling the dice, IMO.

[NineseveN]

Originally Posted by synergy

Don't you think that if it were that simple to give the gun 3 more rounds, without sacrificing reliability, that Glock would have done that by now?

What...you put a 9mm follower in a 27 or 23 magazine? Sounds like your rolling the dice, IMO.

MTBKSKI carries an XD as I recall...though I could be wrong.

[Mtbkski]

Nineseven is right. I carry an XD Subcompact. Here is a link to see pics on just how simple this process really is. I guess Kaos has already done it and said that he has had no malfunctions whatsoever.

I'm picking up a second 40 Accessory kit this weekend. That will give me plenty of mags for both the full size and the subcompact.

Link to converting 40cal Subcompact Magazines for an XD to feed the 9mm, which allows you to carry 13 Rounds in your Subcompact. 13 rounds in a subcompact is a good thing.
http://www.ar15.com/lite/topic.html?b=5&f=34&t=13358

[Hawk]

Great article! I have a question, should I now train myself and teach my wife to empty the gun instead of double tapping? Since according to the article we will do it anyways.

[synergy]

Originally Posted by Hawk

Great article! I have a question, should I now train myself and teach my wife to empty the gun instead of double tapping? Since according to the article we will do it anyways.

I would advocate training to shoot them to the ground....assuming X number of rounds will drop anyone is just foolish. Shoot em till they're on the ground, then be ready to shoot em again. If it takes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 rounds....it doesn't matter, don't let up until they're 100% out of the fight.

Paul Howe, an ex-delta operator, always tells of double tapping guys, COM, with a 5.56...and watching them stay in the fight just fine. He's since become an advocate for the 6.8SPC....but if 2 rounds from a 16" 5.56 carbine, placed well, by a Delta trained warfighter don't take the guy out of the fight.....how much good do you think 2 .38 Special pistol rounds are guarantied to do in a reactive gunfight?

[Mtbkski]

OK, I know its a movie. But it is a great example of what synergy is talking about is Bruce Willis in any of the Die Hard movies. He doesn't shot the bad guy once. He starts shooting and keeps shooting and shooting till the bad guy falls down. No nice double tap and moving on. He hammers them into submission. Firing two, three, four, five, six, whatever it takes.

(Yes, I know it is a movie. But it is the best example of what we are talking about that everyone probably has seen and can relate to)

And I have to agree on this one. If they are standing and a threat, start shooing, and keep shooting. Make them stop what they are doing as quickly as possible.