Legalities in backround check for LTCF

[BradfordCOHunter]

Hello to all...I am new to this forum, and I'm sure glad i stumbled upon it. There is a wealth of knowledge and legal information here, that makes for great reading! I'll start by stating that I currently have a PA LTCF, and have had one for the last 18+ years.

My questions are regarding a situation that arose about 12 years ago. I basically have a dual residency situation in PA, as I also own a home in upstate Pa. Long story short, I changed my address back to my Phila residence, as I was applying for a job with the city. It just so happened at that time, my LTCF permit that was issued by my county sheriff, had just expired. That being the case, I figured I would just apply for a new one in Phila, right? WRONG!

I got a call from a Phila detective, who stated I was denied a permit based on what amounted to them accessing my juvie records and finding a misdemeanor charge. I was shocked to say the least! So when I grilled the detective as to why that was an issue, he told me that the statued had recently been amended, and that particular charge was now considered a felony. How can they make a juvie misdemeanor charge that I plead out on, and received, and successfully completed ARD probation for, with the understanding that my record would be cleared once it was successfully completed, a felony?

Further more, isn't it a violation of my rights, for them to access my juvie records, unless I'm being convicted of another crime and that past history may be of relevance in my sentencing? I was told by a judge that those charges would be cleared from my juvie record if i complied with the ARD program. I have NEVER been arrested as an adult, and I have NEVER been denied a firearm purchase. I have also passed a Federal backround investigation, so I could gain access and work as a contractor in the US Mint.

I smell foul play at work here. You have to adore this city...NOT! I never put up a fuss or sought out legal help, as I basically dismissed it for being what it was...a bunch of hypocrites with they're own agenda. Meanwhile, it's not that big a deal. I was just hoping to get some clarification, to see if I was "jobbed" by our upstanding Police Dept. The county sheriff and PSP still have never denied me a permit, and I applaud them for following the letter of the law.

[HiredGoon]

Just guessing here, but maybe your record was never expunged and you need to get an attorney to help you with that. Why it never hindered you before I don't know. Seems that Philly dug deeper. But you would think that if your record still existed it would have shown up on the PICS check long before the Philly incident.

[P-11 shooter]

WOW! another story of philly being assholes about issueing LTCF. We need to have uniform proceedures no matter what county you live in.

We need to stop nit-picking and denying people for minor mistakes they made while young.

you are lucky however to be able to but guns in the first place. A guy in another threak can NEVER again own a firearm after a charge of possesion of marijuana when he was 19. Now he can never own a gun for LIFE!

Welcome to the forum, hopefully our influence here grows to the point we make these sheriffs follow the DAMN RULES already in place and quit making their own.

[Pa. Patriot]

What level the offense is now is 100% irrelevant.

Appeal

[BradfordCOHunter]

Thanks for the warm welcome, brother's! I also appreciate you chiming in on my situation. That's precisely correct HiredGoon: They dug deeper then they are legally supposed due in this instance. Other than me feeling like they violated my rights by accessing my juvie records for their own agenda, it's only an issue now, because I was seriously considering applying to become a Phila LEO. It is something I have contemplated for a long time but did not really pursue, due in large part because I really didn't care to open up this can of worms so to speak. I figured if they did that to me for a LTCF, they would certainly do it again to investigate me as a perspective hire in the police dept.

I suppose that in a perfect world, I'd have hired an attorney and made certain that all my juvie history was exponged, and then pursued a LEO career. Unfortunately for me, obtaining the services of an attorney isn't really a viable option right now. It is just a downer, because I know I'd make an honorable and highly servicable LEO. I always desired to give back to a system that seemingly can't do much right these days, but did in fact do it's part in helping me as a some what misguided youth. I never ever sold a drug or was a part of any violent crimes as a teen. I was just a knucklehead kid who grew up in a bad neighborhood, and fought a lot to fit in and get my respect. Once earned, I began to run with people of questionable character, like many youth's are prone to do.

I have a great deal of respect for those who risk their lives to serve and protect the right way. I have even more respect for the social worker's and counselor's who day after day, and kid after kid, put forth an honest effort to rehabilitate at least a handful of the "hard cases" they see each year. If not for people like them, I have no idea where I would be in life right now. I am one of the lucky ones who saw the light and cared enough to make changes and become a better person, not just a Law abiding person.

If someone cares to throw a few names of an attorney who handles this type of stuff at a set fee rate, I'd certainly look further in to matters. As it stands now though, I have a PA. LTCF permit, and I figure I will just leave things be, and continue my career as a truck driver. With my luck, they would find a way to strip me of the permit I have now. Thanks again to all....be safe out there!

[c45man]

Bradford, It doesn't matter whatever violation was charged or what age. The fact is, that an ARD disposition successfully completed is not a conviction. It is not a conviction irregardless of any record cleared or not. It could stay in your record, but again it is not a conviction.

On the other hand, are you sure that your matter was not heard in an adult court? In my experience, I have never heard of a juvenile going on an ARD program, only probation. Of course probation is the result of a conviction and totally different than ARD.

[BradfordCOHunter]

Well C45, that's a very good question. It was a long time ago, so It's a but fuzzy to me now. That being said, I know for a fact I was never tried as an adult, and I specifically remember being given an ARD program....thats why ARD sticks in my mind. That's not something most people recall from over 20 years ago, out of no where. I guess I didn't explain the situation properly, if in fact ARD is not an actual form of probation. As I previously stated, I have NO adult criminal record, have never been denied a firearm purchase, have successfully passed a federal backround check for employment at the US Mint, and basically have never had ANY of this come up at any other time in my life, except for when Phila did a check on me for my LTCF.
Now that I'm thinking about it further, perhaps it was the fingerprints. Maybe they show up from my juvie history? If thats the case, how come when the sheriff in my county issued me two more renewal's since then, non of this showed up in his backround info from the PSP? Surely they would have some record of this if it was in fact legal to deny me based on the same criteria that Phila did, right?

[ExCopInPhilly]

When you filled out your application, did you list that you had been arrested for the offense? If not, Philly is famous for having you try to remember an arrest that happened when you were 12, and then if you forgot about it and didn't list it, you were being fraudulent. ARD is not a conviction and can't be held against you. You need to file an appeal.

[BradfordCOHunter]

ExCop...They never stated anything about me being fraudulent on the application. And no, I NEVER state I have been convicted on any forms I fill out, because technically speaking, It should never show up on the record. This is a gray area for people like me. Technically I was arrested, but as a juvie. I was supposed to have been cleared upon the completion of the accepted program/terms. I upheld my end of the bargain, so realistically, why should I state I was arrested as a juvie on any application? We ALL know that to do so on any form or application of significance, would basically condemn me for life.
So that brings me to the gray area...Am I wrong for not stating those juvie transgretions on a form or application I fill out for employment, for permits, or anything else of note?

[BradfordCOHunter]

That's why I like this site so much...I think I just found the supposed reasoning as to why they accessed my juvie records, in another thread. As Section 5 states, " The Sheriff to conduct investigation shall conduct a criminal background, juvenile delinquency and mental health check, following the procedures set forth in section 6111 (relating to sale or transfer of firearms)

I think they misunderstood (by accident or on purpose) section 5, or maybe I'm the idiot here? It states clearly: "Conduct a criminal backround, juvenile delinquency, and mental health check FOLLOWING THE PROCEDURES SET FORTH IN SECTION 6111-(RELATING TO SALE OR TRANSFER OF FIREARMS)

In my mind, that means they are to follow the exact same procedures set forth in section 6111, which apparently is the written guidline used to do a backround check on those buying, selling, or transferring a firearm for what ever reason. In other words, since I have never had any problem passing the backround check to purchase a firearm, it would be because that particular check is not priivy to certain records, based on my legal rights, and based on the legal guidelines set forth in section 6111

Am I on to something here?

(d) Sheriff to conduct investigation.--The sheriff to whom
the application is made shall:
(1) investigate the applicant's record of criminal
conviction;
(2) investigate whether or not the applicant is under
indictment for or has ever been convicted of a crime
punishable by imprisonment exceeding one year;
(3) investigate whether the applicant's character and
reputation are such that the applicant will not be likely to
act in a manner dangerous to public safety;
(4) investigate whether the applicant would be precluded
from receiving a license under subsection (e)(1) or section
6105(h) (relating to persons not to possess, use,
manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms); and
(5) conduct a criminal background, juvenile delinquency
and mental health check following the procedures set forth in
section 6111 (relating to sale or transfer of firearms),
receive a unique approval number for that inquiry and record
the date and number on the application.