Municipalities in violation of §6120 (Preemption)

[gnbrotz]

Thanks for explaining that difference. I'd think they'd have just as hard of a time showing authority and resolution of an ordinance, given PA's preemption. Your point is certainly worth noting, but I think the fact that any type of control on this issue is asserted is worth listing here, since the standard is regulating "in any manner".

[ccphilly1984]

most of these counties' laws are for their county parks... this is their property and they can ask you to leave if they see that you are carrying, but they can not arrest you for doing so. now if they ask you to leave and you do not, then you are trespassing.

[gnbrotz]

I disagree. If they ask me to leave because I'm carrying, they are "regulating" my possession for a "purpose not prohibited by the laws of this commonwealth". State law prohibits this. Thus, I would argue they cannot ask me to leave a public park for legally carrying a firearm.

[markheck1]

I agree with gnbrotz....this is public land, not private....makes the difference

[ccphilly1984]

the land is owned by the township, it is "public" land, but it is "public invite" to the township owned land... it's kind of iffy... just like they have pubic smoking bans in buildings... the bars are owned, but they are by public invite.

[VariableFeedback]

Originally Posted by ccphilly1984

the land is owned by the township, it is "public" land, but it is "public invite" to the township owned land... it's kind of iffy... just like they have pubic smoking bans in buildings... the bars are owned, but they are by public invite.

If you will allow the townships to ignore preemption for parks, can you explain what the difference is between the parks and the roads? Or should the township be able to ignore preemption for somebody driving down the street or walking down the sidewalk?

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by ccphilly1984

the land is owned by the township, it is "public" land, but it is "public invite" to the township owned land... it's kind of iffy... just like they have pubic smoking bans in buildings... the bars are owned, but they are by public invite.

there is a problem with these arguments.

namely, the PA UFA preemption statute specifically states that no municipality or county may *in any manner* regulate the possession of firearms.

the township/county/etc. does not have the same power to regulate firearms on it's "public invite" land as a regular private property owner because the preemption clause specifically addresses municipalities and counties and not any other land owners.

the fact that the land is owned by the township and is "public invite" is irrelevant. the preemption statute does not contain any language that limits it to only streets, sidewalks, etc. or any other specific type of public or private land.

it also does not limit itself to covering just ordinances. it says "regulate" and it says "in any manner".

a park regulation is, by defintion, regulation...and, thus, covered by the "regulate" phraseology. further, the "in any manner" clause also clearly means it is not limited to just preventing ordinances regardng carrying in general. regulating the possession of firearms in parks is "regulating" and falls under "in any manner".

also, regarding local smoking bans...i know of at least two (erie and allegheny county) that were shot down by the courts because there is a preemption clause in the state clean air act (and that preemption clause is more vague and weaker than the one in the PA UFA to boot).

are there any local smoking bans in force in PA?

[ccphilly1984]

Originally Posted by VariableFeedback

If you will allow the townships to ignore preemption for parks, can you explain what the difference is between the parks and the roads? Or should the township be able to ignore preemption for somebody driving down the street or walking down the sidewalk?

streets are different rules and regulations from parks because streets are means of transportation from one property (block of land) to another block of land. public parks are land owned by a township. it's local govenrnment property and they can restrict things on their own land... yes it is designated for public use, but it has hours restrictions when the public is not invited in, firearm or not. I wouldn't like the government telling me what to do with my land, so they can have the parks if they really want to. they restrict smoking in certain areas of their parks even though has a pa preemption for them laws too... it's about property rights. you can not be arrested or prosecuted for carrying a firearm in a park, but the park ranger does have a right to kick you out or ask you to leave your firearm in your vehicle. if it were public use all the time, then there would be no park hours, just as there are no street hours (times when you can and can not use a street). Do you think we should be able to go into county parks whenever we desire? it's the same deal as smoking... If i decided to ignorantly light up a cigarette in a courthouse, I would be asked to leave, but can not be arrested for it... I might get a fine for being a public nuisance, but no criminal arrest.

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by ccphilly1984

Do you think we should be able to go into county parks whenever we desire?

there is no state preemption clause with regard to park hours.

if there were, counties/townships could not set their own park hours either.

but there is not.

however, there is a (very strong and crystal clear) state preemption clause regarding the regulating of possession (not just transportation) of firearms.

[ccphilly1984]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

there is no state preemption clause with regard to park hours.

if there were, counties/townships could not set their own park hours either.

but there is not.

however, there is a (very strong and crystal clear) state preemption clause regarding the regulating of possession (not just transportation) of firearms.

there is one (a preeemption) for smoking, but governments restrict smoking in their buildings and can do it in their parks too. If you want to carry in your park, then take it to the pa supreme court... I don't even bother to carry unless i'm going to "the hood"