1ST time buyer SBR/NFA timeline..

[ithinkimamedic]

Originally Posted by fullauto223

I think we should get our own "wait for new toys club" started. Last thursday I got my finger prints done ($25 for the first 2 and $10 each add.) Dam I glad they didn't charge me last time for 8 sets, 3 cans 1 MG. And of course the chief is on vacation so i have to wait for him to get back, but of course I won't be the first thing on his list of stuff to do. wait,wait,wait! but wait there's more! Now all I have to do is wait for these.....




At least it's not taking 8-10 months for approval anymore
my last one's were 28-35 days

Your alive! and that HK53 (?) looks sweet! ugh! where do you come up with this!??!?!


And yes form a trust if you can't get the sign off.

[GunLawyer001]

I have to weigh in on the "trust" issue again.

Forming a trust correctly is not a simple matter.

Operating a trust correctly is not a simple matter.

Forming or operating a trust incorrectly takes away your sole defense to a charge of being in possession of an unregistered NFA weapon. The best outcome is that they seize and destroy every Title II firearm that was registered to the trust. The worst outcome is prison time.

You won't know that there's anything wrong with how you created your trust or how you've run your trust until there's a challenge by ATF or your local DA, and then it will be too late. Until then, you'll have a sheaf of 8.5" X 11" paperwork that looks fine, is neatly stapled, and has several legal-sounding words in it. It may get you a tax stamp or 10, everything will look great to you and the paper-pushers who process NFA Forms.

Trusts, corporations and LLC's are like airbags, only an expert can tell you which ones are going to work when they need to work. Before that, there's no difference between a good solid airbag and a handful of dirty socks in your steering column. What's happening is that dozens of NFA guys are recommending to each other that they do something terribly dangerous because nothing bad has happened YET.

[ithinkimamedic]

gunlawyer what would you recommend as another option then if he can't get the CLEO sign off?

[GunLawyer001]

Originally Posted by ithinkimamedic

gunlawyer what would you recommend as another option then if he can't get the CLEO sign off?

My first choice is always to get a CLEO signature. Owning the firearms yourself is always the simplest long-term situation, you don't have to keep up with any paperwork unless you cross state lines. If you can't persuade the chief of police, then try the sheriff, or DA, or a judge who hears felony cases, or try the local State Police barracks (they usually don't sign, but sometimes they do, and ATF will accept it.)

If you really can't get the signature, and you don't want to relocate to a friendly county, then I recommend an LLC prepared by a gun-friendly lawyer or CPA. An LLC is much easier to run properly than a corporation, and on firmer ground than a trust. Make sure to get an appropriate Operating Agreement, too, because owning an LLC or corp or trust doesn't automatically translate into the right to hold the firearms in your hands.

Also, resist the urge to pretend that your buddy is an "employee" so that he can play with the firearms without you. Real "employees" get paid, have offices and duties and hours and withholding and workman's comp premiums...ATF has no sense of humor about these things. Only bona fide LLC members and employees should have custody and control of Title II firearms that are registered to your company.

[ithinkimamedic]

Excellent information. I'm glad that my CLEO will sign for everything that sounds like a huge hassel (though worth it for the fun)! Thanks for the infomation GunLawyer!

Cheers,
Josh


sorry for the thread hyjack

[fullauto223]

Snert, the AR is a LWRC M6A2 10.5" gas piston from LWRC, bought from www.C3Sports.com

ithinkimamedic, that is a Vector Arms V53a3 from of couse Vector ( i think the 40rnd mag looks odd good thing i got a slew of 25&30's )

and there is a very informative article in the Feb. '08 Small Arms Review called "Avoiding Unauthorized NFA Transfers by Non-FFL Business Organizations and Trusts" which came in the mail today. Read 30% of it before dinner and let me tell this you can get into deep Doo-Doo real quick with LLCs and Trusts if you don't keep up with filing ALL the proper paper work with everybody all the time.

[bogey1]

Originally Posted by fullauto223

I think we should get our own "wait for new toys club" started. Last thursday I got my finger prints done ($25 for the first 2 and $10 each add.) Dam I glad they didn't charge me last time for 8 sets, 3 cans 1 MG. And of course the chief is on vacation so i have to wait for him to get back, but of course I won't be the first thing on his list of stuff to do. wait,wait,wait! but wait there's more! Now all I have to do is wait for these.....




At least it's not taking 8-10 months for approval anymore
my last one's were 28-35 days

how many sets of prints are you allowed to get at one time? and dont they all have to be signed by the person issuing them?

[fullauto223]

bogey1, I have had them bitch up a storm about getting a bunch 4+ sets done at one time.
They claim that the ink works it's way deep into finger print grooves and the print smudges. So after I went threw that once I started taking hand towles with cleaner in it to get the ink off and start fresh again, so there was no more bitch'n the last time with 8 sets.

And yes the officer doing the prints has to put his badge #, their signature, and station address one each card

and every time I have to argue with them to put that info on it, the fact is they hate doing them all together.
I had to wait 3 hours once for an officer to come back to the station for prints

[Snert]

I am in hopes of making a appointment with the sherriff for all the papers and prints. I figure if I can get the appointment, I can get in get everything done and walk out the door. Go down the road to the post office and mail it all out.

I never felt the need for myself to set a trust/LLC. I have always felt it to be more headach than it was worth. BUT this is just me, later in time my thoughts might change. If they do, well be rest assured I WILL invest into a lawyer to set it all up. I dont want to have the headachs of paying for a simple mistake.

Snert.

[Gun Trust Lawyer, David G]

Although I would agree that a standard trust or business orginization can be problematic for NFA items because of the potential for unauthorized trasfers which can result in Criminal and Civil penalties of 10 years in jail and $250,000 in penalties, the liklihood that your personal representative would make the same mistake as a trustee is just as likely.

I would suggest that a well drafted NFA trust offers a significant advantage over a CLEO purchase or one by a standard trust. The problem is that most people use a standard estate planning trust to hold NFA items. This gives the successor trustee and beneficiaries no indication as to what is required to have a proper transfer of a class 3 items nor does it take into account where the beneficiary lives at the time of the transfer, how old the beneficiary is, and many other items that a typical trust does not address (for more of these issues you might see my gun trust articles in the link below)

Because of the nature of a class 3 or class 1 item, a NFA trust or a busienss entity with specific NFA guidlines in the bylaws or organizational documents is the safest way to own these items. Without such documentation, you put your family and friends at risk of substantial criminal and civil liabillity. Often we see clients who use quicken or some canned trust software. These are some of the worst ways to own NFA items, although they do the trick for acquiring the items, the risk to your family is far too great to not use a properly drafted trust. I work with gun trust lawyers in PA and the cost is very reasonable.

There are other issues with when using a trust that need to be considered, for example the transfer of assets into the trust can be problmatic with weapons. How to use the trust to purchase the class 3 items so that you dont create an invalid transfer by purchasing the items yourself when the paperwork shows that the trust is making the purchase.

Originally Posted by fullauto223

Snert, the AR is a LWRC M6A2 10.5" gas piston from LWRC, bought from www.C3Sports.com

ithinkimamedic, that is a Vector Arms V53a3 from of couse Vector ( i think the 40rnd mag looks odd good thing i got a slew of 25&30's )

and there is a very informative article in the Feb. '08 Small Arms Review called "Avoiding Unauthorized NFA Transfers by Non-FFL Business Organizations and Trusts" which came in the mail today. Read 30% of it before dinner and let me tell this you can get into deep Doo-Doo real quick with LLCs and Trusts if you don't keep up with filing ALL the proper paper work with everybody all the time.