Area man accused of shooting person trying to steal his car

[GunLawyer001]

and THIS is why I say that you are not always obliged to run to the police and tell them about your shooting of the bad guy. Because the law doesn't let you shoot the bad guys, even if you catch them red-handed at 3:50 AM.

How do you think the police heard about this? Did the guy who they found hiding in the woods call them to say that he was shot while stealing a car? I don't think so. I'm sure that the homeowner subscribed to Massad Ayoob's theory that you always call the cops so that you can be first in line with spin.

My theory is that you go back to bed, and when the cops show up because a neighbor heard gunshots, you don't know anything. The case goes away, some guy shows up in the ER with an inexplicable gunshot wound, nothing much happens except that we have a limping thief who can't run away as fast in the future.

But no, he called our public servants, and they enforced the elitist statutes as written. If I were on the jury, I have to admit that I'd be VERY open to any claims of self-defense, perhaps a lot more open than the judge would like. Maybe a claim by the homeowner that he reacted to "a furtive movement" would be enough, same as when cops say it.

Government bureaucrats don't want to empower you, they want you to fund their police and jails, and rely on them for your personal safety. Look at England, where they prosecute every homeowner if he resists a home invasion with a golf club or a 2X4. Thieves don't fear the cops nearly as much as they fear armed homeowners, which is why we have more thieves where we have fewer armed homeowners.

It should be riskier to be a thief than to be a homeowner. The law should reflect that, and if we put it to a referendum, it would. I'd wager that most people believe that what they see in the movies, where property owners show up and let loose a shotgun blast at thieves, is the way it is already. You cannot deter smash & grab thieves by calling the cops, any more than you can swat flies with a piano. They just won't wait around long enough.

We need a legislator to sponsor Texas-style use of force laws. It's more fair for thieves to be afraid that they will be killed for stealing your lawn furniture than it is for you to be unable to keep what you've paid for. If they don't want to be shot while stealing, they can always stop stealing.

[jud4420]

Originally Posted by TonyF

You can argue all these points but it doesn't matter. A firearm constitutes deadly force.

It's not a good idea to play "footsie" with the laws governing use of deadly force. It doesn't matter if he didn't die. What matters is you used deadly force when it wasn't justified.

Being a person thats had to use my firearm twice in self defense, i can tell you a firearm does NOT constitute deadly force. Now granted my circumstances were slightly different but the charges in the one instance, were about the same. And after a drawn out jury trial they determined that one, i was justified in using force, and two that the perps put themselves in harms way when they engaged in their behavior.

But i too made the mistake of calling the police. Had i not they would have never known - somehow the neighbors didnt hear. And for my honesty... i was looking at up to 12 years. 2 years for each perp.

Want to know what these guys were charged with...? Disorderly conduct. 6 guys with weapons come to my home at 3 am who ive never met in my life. They get disorderly conduct and i get the book. Glad the jury had more sense than the DA.

My point is if you ever find yourself in this position.. dont call the police, call your lawyer. And if the police do come.. dont try and help, keep your mouth shut. Nothing good will come of being helpful.

The second time i had to use force things worked out much better. I was charged with a concealed weapon charge that was dropped cause they had nothing else to charge me with. It wasnt concealed and i was at my place of buisness. But i wasnt as forthcoming with info that time and it worked out much better. $100 fine for disorderly, I'll take it - my lawyer cost Way more than that.

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by jud4420

Being a person thats had to use my firearm twice in self defense, i can tell you a firearm does NOT constitute deadly force. Now granted my circumstances were slightly different but the charges in the one instance, were about the same. And after a drawn out jury trial they determined that one, i was justified in using force, and two that the perps put themselves in harms way when they engaged in their behavior.

But i too made the mistake of calling the police. Had i not they would have never known - somehow the neighbors didnt hear. And for my honesty... i was looking at up to 12 years. 2 years for each perp.

Want to know what these guys were charged with...? Disorderly conduct. 6 guys with weapons come to my home at 3 am who ive never met in my life. They get disorderly conduct and i get the book. Glad the jury had more sense than the DA.

You're not providing enough details, especially the part about six guys with weapons "coming to my home". What does that mean? A home invasion? What I will say is that six guys with weapons "about to break into my home" is entirely different. I'd definitely arm myself and use force, lethal if necessary to prevent them from entering my home. OTOH, if I see someone trying to steal my truck, or lawnmower, or lawn furniture, I'm calling the police.

My point is if you ever find yourself in this position.. dont call the police, call your lawyer. And if the police do come.. dont try and help, keep your mouth shut. Nothing good will come of being helpful.

This is exactly what we tell our students during the lethal force lecture of our training courses.

The second time i had to use force things worked out much better. $100 fine for disorderly, I'll take it - my lawyer cost Way more than that.

This is the point. $$$$$$$$$

However, any time we engage someone with lethal force who also has the capability to employ lethal force, and we won't know that at the time of the encounter, there is always the chance that despite how well trained we are, or how much "been there, done that" experience we have, the threat can get lucky and kill us.

Is the lawnmower, lawn chair, car or truck worth more than our lives?

I am always amazed at how so many gun owners think that just because they have a gun, that they will automatically prevail if they are ever in a gunfight.

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by jud4420

Being a person thats had to use my firearm twice in self defense, i can tell you a firearm does NOT constitute deadly force.

Again, not knowing the particulars of your case, what I do know is that the only time we are legally able to use deadly force is when we, or another person in proximity to us, is in imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm.

Presenting a firearm implies the use of deadly force. If the criteria of death or serious bodily harm isn't present, that is aggravated assault.

In your case, six armed men at 3am, outside my door with weapons comes perilously close to fitting that criteria IMHO.

[cock&lock]

Your 100% correct. You should never make any statements to the police when facing any POSSIBLE criminal charges. Your only legal obligation to the police is to provide them with your name and legal address. ANY OTHER STATEMENTS should be for your attorney's ears only (not family members, friends or cell buddies). If you do that you will save yourself alot of grief down the road.

NO STATEMENT TO THE POLICE EVER HELPS YOU. NO MATTER HOW SELF-SERVING YOU THINK IT IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ccphilly1984]

Originally Posted by Salt

I do agree with you to a certain degree. I think the situatuion could have been handled better. I know if I was in this situation I would not have shot the perps.

More than likley, considering it was my home, I would rack a shotgun or full on draw on them with a handgun, maybe even illuminate the area if possible, but wouldnt have shot. Just for the fact that I wouldnt want to be in half the shit that the homeowner is in now.

I just think that there were other ways of taking control of the situation. I couldnt agree more with you, if your going to steal cars, you got some shit coming your way. I have no sympathy for those scumbags.

yeah i would have had my gun drawn, but I wouldn't have fired unless they tried to attack me.

on the other note, i heard in texas, that would be perfectly legal... anyone know if that's true?

[1861]

Originally Posted by ccphilly1984

yeah i would have had my gun drawn, but I wouldn't have fired unless they tried to attack me.

on the other note, i heard in texas, that would be perfectly legal... anyone know if that's true?

yep , in Texas it would , unfortunatly not here .

[Adam M Geer]

at least people know not to steal from him anymore

[Dredly]

This would have been an excellent opportunity for him to call the police first, and report something along the lines of "There are two people with guns pointing them at my house and trying to break into my car! I think they plan on coming inside by the way they are gesturing send help!"

Then open a window and yell out "I just called the police and they are on the way!"

More then likely both people would run, when the police get there you tell them you looked at the window and saw them so you called the police right away!

If they don't run and they decide to come at you... now you have an ironclad defense of "I tried calling the police and these men came in my house".


Personally I think the idea of not telling the police would look very bad for you, especially if this guy would have died. Now they have no report of the shooting, a reliable witness to put this guy at the scene (and she was 16, you know she would have gotten 2 years probation for this crime if that), your slug is stuck in his leg, and a blood trail leading right back to your house. Not exactly a hard case to crack for the detective.

In reality this is most likely an excellent example of a man who doesn't know the laws surrounding when it is legal to employ deadly force and when it is not legal to employ deadly force. As a result his ignorance will now land him in jail for several years.

Anyone else think a PAFOA flyer should be required literature to hand out for every gun sale?

[CZ40P]

I only have two words for this situation: JURY NULLIFICATION