Another LTCF shooting!

[Autonomous]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

It's the only proven way to prevent recidivism. With limited exceptions, our society does nothing to make crime sufficiently unattractive. We coddle juvenile criminals, teaching them that our concern is more about how to help them become better people than to punish them so harshly that they are afraid to commit more crimes. That lesson usually is taught from age 13 or so until they hit 18, then we make sure that each crime that we catch them at is punished lightly enough that it seems proportionate to the crime.

If we fined shoplifters the value of the stolen goods each time that we caught them, nobody would stop shoplifting, because they don't get caught every time. The same principle applies to all crimes, since we solve relatively few major crimes, and pretty much none of the minor ones.

What we need is disproportionate punishment. Make criminals afraid to be caught committing crimes, make punishment a life-altering horror that makes criminals wake at 3 AM screaming in fear. Shooting them dead when caught in flagrante delicto is another option that works. Lopping off hands for theft results in almost no theft in some sandy nations, so they aren't all bad.

So I am glad that the manager of that business was able to defend himself against two intruders, at least one of witch was armed. I am hoping that the manager has good folks around him to help him to both deal with the situation and to deal with a possible revisit by "friends" of the two would be robbers (as with most situations the robbery could have become a murder quickly seeing as they were waiting in ambush for him at 5am)

GunLawyer....
I often wonder about the disproportionate punishment proposal. I guess I would not want to trust any person with this kind of power. Thinking of how easily it is to corrupt people and to manipulate the system I am afraid of our government having this power to use on criminals.
One of the problems with that sandy nation you alluded to is that the ruling family has used this disproportionate system of punishment to keep all sorts of people from attempting to take power (or even living life styles that are deemed immoral...not a fan of blasphemy being a capital offence). We happen to support them cause lets face it allies are in short supply in that area. But it is directly at the cost of individual citizens of those country's....
I just don't trust that power in anyones hands...
Now if it happens in a situation like this I am in full support of people playing a armed roll in defending themselves and others from a attack....
-A

[BlownNitroPontiac]

Originally Posted by Bruce

Which is one reason, I believe, that there is so much violent crime in those areas where law-abiding citizens have been disarmed.

That, coupled with the fact of who inhabits those high crime areas.

[jtkratzer]

I don't know the specific details of the penal code, but does Pa practice the idea that if you're involved in the commission of a crime and someone dies, even if it's your accomplish, you can be/will be charged with capital murder?

I'm just curious as you see other states do this and just wondering what the other guy will more than likely face when caught.

I'm tired of reading crap in the paper and seeing it in the news about the garbage from Lancaster City. It seems every day you read about a stabbing/robbery/shooting/assault/home invasion/something...it just seems to be getting worse and worse.

Add this to the PennDot crews cutting down most of the trees along 222 between Lancaster and Reading because drug dealers are making exchanges there and it's like is this ever going to come under control?

Seems like most of these scumbags are from out of the area...Philly, New York, etc.

My wife wants to move into Lancaster for a short period of time before we have kids just to have a bit of that city life (being able to walk to restaurants, Central Market, all that stuff) but I'm not thrilled about what comes with the territory. We have friends that live in the city and have never had a problem, but I'm starting to think it's only a matter of time.

[BlownNitroPontiac]

Originally Posted by PisnNapalm

Wait a minute... A robbery can go good? Seems to me like this robbery attempt went just fine.

Give that man a cigar!

[Shawn.L]

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

It's the only proven way to prevent recidivism. With limited exceptions, our society does nothing to make crime sufficiently unattractive. We coddle juvenile criminals, teaching them that our concern is more about how to help them become better people than to punish them so harshly that they are afraid to commit more crimes. That lesson usually is taught from age 13 or so until they hit 18, then we make sure that each crime that we catch them at is punished lightly enough that it seems proportionate to the crime.

If we fined shoplifters the value of the stolen goods each time that we caught them, nobody would stop shoplifting, because they don't get caught every time. The same principle applies to all crimes, since we solve relatively few major crimes, and pretty much none of the minor ones.What we need is disproportionate punishment. Make criminals afraid to be caught committing crimes, make punishment a life-altering horror that makes criminals wake at 3 AM screaming in fear. Shooting them dead when caught in flagrante delicto is another option that works. Lopping off hands for theft results in almost no theft in some sandy nations, so they aren't all bad.

It is the likelyhood og being caught that is a deterant. If we did as you suggest with shoplifting, maybe price of item plus 10% but everyone got caught EVERYTIME then people would not shoplift. The chance of getting away with it is just way too high. If the penalty was DEATH for shoplifting but nobody EVER gets caught people would still shoplift. It is the risk of being caught which prevents some crimes, not the punishment, no matter how severe.

[jtkratzer]

Maybe we need to start a new thread on the punishment of crimes...

I read an article about 8 people who are being stoned to death in Iran for adultery, with witnesses or evidence, simply at the whim of the judge. The process for stoning is to bury females up to their necks in the ground and males up to their waists and simply throw stones at them until they die.

You have people in this country complaining and up in arms that an overdose of an anesthetic is cruel and unusual and a supreme court ruling that says the 8th Amendment protects child rapists from getting the death penalty, but then you see how the punishment of something that's not even considered a crime in this country is carried out in Iran...WTF is wrong with people?



In this case in Manheim, this wasn't a victimless crime, this wasn't something petty...I have no problem with summarily executing people who perpetrate crimes like this after they are convicted in a fair and just court of law. Someone who is willing to take up arms against a fellow citizen for a few bucks and potentially take that citizen's life simply because he has something you want is worthy of capital punishment. If you are doing nothing but living a life of crime and feeding off of the rest of the law abiding people in the society around you, you're worthless.

[Brown-Bear]

A sucking chest wound is the laymans term for a punture wiund to the plueral space of either one or both lungs. Basically in a shoting the bullet passes thru the skin, subcutaneous tissue as well as the muscle. The thru the plureal space which is a thin membrane that surounds the lungs, and keeps the safely encased in an airtight chamber. In order to actually have a sucking chest wound both this membrane as well as the lung itself must be punctured.

The "sucking" sound comes from the patient exhaling, not inhaling. When we inhale our diaphragms pull down, the intercostal muscles(small fibers between the ribs) expand increasing the volume of our chest cavity, causing air to rush into the lungs via the trachea. When we exhale the opposite takes place. The lung deflates and air is expelled from the lungs. If their is a puncture, air from outside the body rushes into the chest cavity during exhalation, which inturns inhibits the chest cavity from expanding on the next breath. Ecah subsequent breath will less efective than the previous one. In extreme caes we can see trachial deviation. The trachea will actaully shift to the uninjured side to make a more direct route to the most productive lung.

They are most certainly dangerous, but not typically fatal if properly treated. Hope that helps.

Dave.

Mobile Intensive Care Unit, EMT-B, MA.

[headcase]

Originally Posted by Brown-Bear

A sucking chest wound is the laymans term for a punture wiund to the plueral space of either one or both lungs. Basically in a shoting the bullet passes thru the skin, subcutaneous tissue as well as the muscle. The thru the plureal space which is a thin membrane that surounds the lungs, and keeps the safely encased in an airtight chamber. In order to actually have a sucking chest wound both this membrane as well as the lung itself must be punctured.

The "sucking" sound comes from the patient exhaling, not inhaling. When we inhale our diaphragms pull down, the intercostal muscles(small fibers between the ribs) expand increasing the volume of our chest cavity, causing air to rush into the lungs via the trachea. When we exhale the opposite takes place. The lung deflates and air is expelled from the lungs. If their is a puncture, air from outside the body rushes into the chest cavity during exhalation, which inturns inhibits the chest cavity from expanding on the next breath. Ecah subsequent breath will less efective than the previous one. In extreme caes we can see trachial deviation. The trachea will actaully shift to the uninjured side to make a more direct route to the most productive lung.

They are most certainly dangerous, but not typically fatal if properly treated. Hope that helps.

Dave.

Mobile Intensive Care Unit, EMT-B, MA.

A gallon size ziplock bag and duct tape are always in my make shift A-bag. Cut bag in half to make two seperate squares, place inside side of one down centered over wound. Duct tape three sides, on the inhale, leaving the nearest arm side open. On exhale, plastic should tighten over wound, making an air tight seal. Roll victim over on side, so wound is close to ground, this allows fluid to drain from chest cavity, allowing expansion room for lung...

Have not had to do one for quite a few years, but I believe I remember the procedure correctly......

[GunLawyer001]

Originally Posted by Shawn.L

It is the likelyhood og being caught that is a deterant. If we did as you suggest with shoplifting, maybe price of item plus 10% but everyone got caught EVERYTIME then people would not shoplift. The chance of getting away with it is just way too high. If the penalty was DEATH for shoplifting but nobody EVER gets caught people would still shoplift. It is the risk of being caught which prevents some crimes, not the punishment, no matter how severe.

Good point, the deterrent is the product of the punishment multiplied by the chance of being caught, the "expected value" of the punishment.

So, 1 chance in a thousand of spending a year in jail yields an expected punishment of about 8 hours. Most crimes are not solved; of those that are solved, some are prosecuted; of those, some are convicted; of those, some go to jail. It's the tail end of a bunch of "ifs".

The fine for littering is, what, $300? Almost nobody ever gets caught for littering, so the expected fine approaches zero. That's why we have a lot of litter. Murders get solved around half the time in some places, so a 50% chance of life in prison or the death penalty is a deterrent, at least to criminals smart enough to understand the odds.

[jtkratzer]

Morning paper rewrite:

John Roads believes people should be able to defend themselves against criminals, even if it means using a firearm.

The owner of Power Pro Battery Co., 210 S. Penn St., Manheim, said it was the right to possess a gun that potentially saved the life of his operations manager Tuesday and ended the life of a would-be robber.

Kevin Lee Smith, 19, of Lancaster, was shot and killed by the manager early Tuesday when Smith and an accomplice held up the manager with a semiautomatic weapon, police said. (Police asked that the manager's name not be published, because the accomplice was still at-large Tuesday night.)

Police said the manager acted in self-defense.

"We all have a right to come to work, to do our time and go home to our families," Roads said. "And nobody has a right to take that away from us."

Roads said he was at home when he got a phone call from the alarm company early Tuesday notifying him of a break-in at his business. He later heard from his manager, who told him he had shot a man.

Roads said he or his manager usually opens the business before 6 a.m., but Tuesday was not his day to handle the task.

"(The manager) had an angel in his pocket," Roads said, "and I can only hope that I would have been as lucky and as fortunate had it been me."

The manager explained the robbery circumstances to Roads on Tuesday morning, telling him two men were hiding under the wooden steps leading to the front entrance of the building.

According to Roads:

The manager said the two men made a noise under the steps, dropping a cell phone and a backpack and alerting him to their presence.

As the manager put the key in the front door, the two men, wearing black clothing, baseball caps and bandannas over their faces, walked up the stairs and followed him into the business, pointing a TEC-9 semiautomatic weapon at his back.

They pushed him into an office five feet inside the entrance and stayed in the hallway, with a security camera in the hallway catching most of the action.

The two men patted down the manager, taking his wallet and a company cell phone. However, they failed to pat down his other pocket, which contained a small-caliber semiautomatic pistol that he carried for protection.

The manager was told to open the business safe, and as the two men briefly looked toward the door, he pulled the gun from his pocket, firing two shots at Smith, who was holding the TEC-9.

Everything happened in two to three minutes, the manager told Roads.

"They gave (my manager) a split second to defend himself, and he did," Roads said.

The two men ran from the business, dropping the gun near a telephone pole, and they also dropped other items along West Stiegel Street, including hats and a backpack.

Police said a preliminary examination of the TEC-9 showed the weapon was jammed, indicating that the trigger was pulled at some point. Police said they were not sure when it was discharged.

Blood spots were still visible on West Stiegel Street Tuesday afternoon.

Smith collapsed about 400 yards from the business as the other man ran from the scene.

Manheim Borough police were called to the shooting scene near the intersection of South Penn and West Stiegel streets just after 5 a.m., and they found Smith on the street with gunshot wounds to the chest and wrist.

Smith was transported to Lancaster General Hospital, where he died from the chest wound.

Manheim Borough police Chief Barry Weidman said he had never seen a robbery turn so violent in the town.

Weidman said the incident should show criminals that they don't always know who is carrying a gun, and who is willing to use one in self defense.

"It should show criminals that you may get away with things for a while, but it's going to catch up to you," Weidman said.

Lancaster County District Attorney Craig Stedman said his office was looking at the evidence.

Stedman said a person has the right to use deadly force if he or she has a reasonable belief that their life is in imminent danger. It does not have to be a crime with a gun involved.

"Obviously, in cases where you have a gun involved, it increases the stakes," Stedman said.

Weidman said the TEC-9, which he called a "street weapon," was one of the first used in a crime in Manheim. It will be sent for analysis and reviewed for evidence of past crimes through ballistic tests.

Roads said the manager has worked for him for almost a year, and he characterized him as a levelheaded family man.

The manager was still working at the battery company about 4 p.m. Tuesday to catch up on time lost to the morning confrontation. Several of his family members, including his father, were standing watch outside the business Tuesday afternoon.

Roads said his business, which buys used batteries, refurbishes them and sells them, has experienced four to five break-ins during his nine years in business. He said people have tried to steal the cash box, but there were never any crimes involving a gun.

Roads said he has learned important lessons from the latest incident.

"A: You can never be too careful," Roads said. "And B: How would you like to live somewhere where you have no rights? The system works, we believe in the system, and thank God for our system."

Police were searching for the second man Tuesday night. He is described as 5 feet 8 inches tall, with a dark complexion and a medium build. He was wearing black clothing and a black baseball hat. Anyone with information is asked to call Manheim Borough police at 665-2481 or 664-1180.

E-mail: myoder@lnpnews.com

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