Worn sears and slam fires a federal crime?

[Dirty_Pete]

I don't know what to make of this, gents...

Let me first explain that I built my first AR-15 a week ago. I'm not an expert, but I definitely remember how it all goes together.

The selector sits in a position such that it blocks the trigger group from operating in safe, and when you switch to fire, you can fire. In the case of my selector, I simply cannot turn in to three-shot burst, though my receiver does have a label for it. My guess this is intentional and is how a standard selector on an AR-15 operates. Please feel free to correct me on this.

As far as I can tell, there are no "parts" between the trigger and the selector that could create 3 round burst. If I was to surmise, I would say that a malfunctioning selector would merely hold the gun in fire mode or hold the gun in safe mode. The semi-automatic action is dictated by the trigger group mechanism. You would need a seperate set of parts to create 3 round burst, my guess is if you "modified" the trigger group you would simply produce full auto vs. semi-auto operation. Any gunsmiths care to weigh in? NOTE: Just realized after I read this. The guy says that his gun was "malfunctioning" in three round burst mode, but, it sounds like it was working just fine. The sworn affadavit said it worked twice in three round burst, jammed in the third time, and when he switched back to single fire it worked as it should. That sounds kinda fishy to me, but again, I'm not the judge of this one.

Therefore, if I were to armchair quarterback, without evidence that the guy (OLOFSON) had a class 3 license, he was in possession of an automatic weapon against BATF rules and deserves to be prosecuted.

Now, I obviously don't want to come to that conclusion because the laws as they stand suck, frankly. However, I don't want someone who might be lying to the government to get out of paying the piper somehow dirtying the good image of legitimate gun owners.

Now, like I said, I don't have all the information on hand so I'm making calls without all the info. This is just what it looks like to me, based on the ATF documents and the affadavit by the guy who borrowed it, at the link LastManOut provided.

Am I missing something here? Please correct me if I'm missing a vital piece of this puzzle.

Pete

[bogey1]

Originally Posted by Dirty_Pete

I don't know what to make of this, gents...

Let me first explain that I built my first AR-15 a week ago. I'm not an expert, but I definitely remember how it all goes together.

The selector sits in a position such that it blocks the trigger group from operating in safe, and when you switch to fire, you can fire. In the case of my selector, I simply cannot turn in to three-shot burst, though my receiver does have a label for it. My guess this is intentional and is how a standard selector on an AR-15 operates. Please feel free to correct me on this.

As far as I can tell, there are no "parts" between the trigger and the selector that could create 3 round burst. If I was to surmise, I would say that a malfunctioning selector would merely hold the gun in fire mode or hold the gun in safe mode. The semi-automatic action is dictated by the trigger group mechanism. You would need a seperate set of parts to create 3 round burst, my guess is if you "modified" the trigger group you would simply produce full auto vs. semi-auto operation. Any gunsmiths care to weigh in? NOTE: Just realized after I read this. The guy says that his gun was "malfunctioning" in three round burst mode, but, it sounds like it was working just fine. The sworn affadavit said it worked twice in three round burst, jammed in the third time, and when he switched back to single fire it worked as it should. That sounds kinda fishy to me, but again, I'm not the judge of this one.

Therefore, if I were to armchair quarterback, without evidence that the guy (OLOFSON) had a class 3 license, he was in possession of an automatic weapon against BATF rules and deserves to be prosecuted.

Now, I obviously don't want to come to that conclusion because the laws as they stand suck, frankly. However, I don't want someone who might be lying to the government to get out of paying the piper somehow dirtying the good image of legitimate gun owners.

Now, like I said, I don't have all the information on hand so I'm making calls without all the info. This is just what it looks like to me, based on the ATF documents and the affadavit by the guy who borrowed it, at the link LastManOut provided.

Am I missing something here? Please correct me if I'm missing a vital piece of this puzzle.

Pete

YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THIS IS HOW THE U.S. GOVERNMENT BANS FIREARMS AND MAKES A TON OF MONEY (AND SPENDS) A TON OF MONEY DOING IT...A SIDE X SIDE SHOTGUN MALFUNCTION AND YOU HAVE A ILLEGAL MACHINE GUN?/????? SORRY FOR YELLING, I FORGOT THE CAPS LOCS WAS ON...

[Dirty_Pete]

Originally Posted by bogey1

YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THIS IS HOW THE U.S. GOVERNMENT BANS FIREARMS AND MAKES A TON OF MONEY (AND SPENDS) A TON OF MONEY DOING IT...A SIDE X SIDE SHOTGUN MALFUNCTION AND YOU HAVE A ILLEGAL MACHINE GUN?/????? SORRY FOR YELLING, I FORGOT THE CAPS LOCS WAS ON...

I must ask, where in the affidavit or BATF statement is there information about an over-under or side-by-side shotgun malfunctioning? The subject of the warrant and the affadavit was an AR-15 in three-round burst mode. Did I miss something in the docs?

Still, I hear you. Every time something like this happens it just opens the door for more restrictions, but if the guy was lying to save his hide (which it sounds like to me, but I can't substantiate) then the judge was within his rights to find him guilty of violating BATF rules, if that's what's being considered here.

Pete

[bogey1]

Originally Posted by Dirty_Pete

I must ask, where in the affidavit or BATF statement is there information about an over-under or side-by-side shotgun malfunctioning? The subject of the warrant and the affadavit was an AR-15 in three-round burst mode. Did I miss something in the docs?

Still, I hear you. Every time something like this happens it just opens the door for more restrictions, but if the guy was lying to save his hide (which it sounds like to me, but I can't substantiate) then the judge was within his rights to find him guilty of violating BATF rules, if that's what's being considered here.

Pete

it was on another thread, i cant remember which one but i read it today. actually it was audio... i think it was the jew pro gun website jfpfa or something, with the guy from savage firearms.

[Dirty_Pete]

Originally Posted by bogey1

it was on another thread, i cant remember which one but i read it today. actually it was audio... i think it was the jew pro gun website jfpfa or something, with the guy from savage firearms.

Len Savage's comments do not match the witness's affadavit.

http://www.jpfo.org/images03/olofson-aff-01.jpg

From this part of the affadavit, the guy verifies that he selected the three-round selector switch. In Len Savage's comments, he never mentions this.

Len also mentions that the gun testers say the AR-15 had M16 trigger parts. I don't know if they're qualified to say this, but if there's any place where an AR-15 and an M16 diverge, it would be in the trigger group, if I were to estimate. Again, never seen an M16.

Len mentions that Olympic uses M16 trigger parts pre-1986, and that this gun was in that group. Also, it was supposedly mandated that this particular gun was recalled because of it's safety issues. However, it kinda seems superfluous. The kid clearly says he had it in three-shot burst, and it operated as indicated on the selector.

The rest of Len's argument beyond his omission that the kid turned the 3 round burst selector on is irrelevant. The olympic arms gun was made with M16 parts, the selector was in three round burst, voila, it produced three rounds, dutifully. It's interesting to think there's some ATF conspiracy theory, but the basic evidence shown doesn't seem to correlate...

Again, I'm not a grabber. I'm a member here obviously because I enjoy my firearms priviledges. I'm just going based on what the documents say vs. what I'm hearing here on Len's recording. I'm just afraid that we sometimes get in the habit of saying "Oh The Big Bad ATF" when here, it's clear to me that what's provided in this discussion as evidence vs. supposition is unnecessarily alarmist based on the evidence provided.

I would encourage anyone else to speak on or against this, I merely want to be better educated on this.. This is the first time I've ever really spoken my mind on one of these issues.

Pete

[PA Rifleman]

The BATFE report sheet is worded to sound as if the rifle was intentionally made to fire automatically, not a wear-induced malfunction.

"Kiernicki then borrowed the Olympic Arms rifle again in early summer. The first time Kiernicki borrowed the Olympic Arms rifle he noticed that the selector switch went to a third selection. ... Olofson stated that the three round burst did not work well because a part is missing and not to use it in the third selection..."

As an experienced user of both AR-15 and M-16 rifles, I can say that a third selector setting on an AR-15 is suspicious to say the least. BATFE has already ruled that M-16 parts installed on an AR-15 already constitutes assembly of a machine gun irrespective of whether it has automatic fire capability. It sounds like some M16 parts may have been used.

[Dirty_Pete]

Originally Posted by PA Rifleman

As an experienced user of both AR-15 and M-16 rifles, I can say that a third selector setting on an AR-15 is suspicious to say the least. BATFE has already ruled that M-16 parts installed on an AR-15 already constitutes assembly of a machine gun irrespective of whether it has automatic fire capability. It sounds like some M16 parts may have been used.

Yep, according to Len Savages (unsworn) testimony on the radio show mp3 provided, the olympics arms AR-15 in question had M-16 parts in it because it was pre-1986.

Pete

[bogey1]

Originally Posted by Dirty_Pete

Len Savage's comments do not match the witness's affadavit.

http://www.jpfo.org/images03/olofson-aff-01.jpg

From this part of the affadavit, the guy verifies that he selected the three-round selector switch. In Len Savage's comments, he never mentions this.

Len also mentions that the gun testers say the AR-15 had M16 trigger parts. I don't know if they're qualified to say this, but if there's any place where an AR-15 and an M16 diverge, it would be in the trigger group, if I were to estimate. Again, never seen an M16.

Len mentions that Olympic uses M16 trigger parts pre-1986, and that this gun was in that group. Also, it was supposedly mandated that this particular gun was recalled because of it's safety issues. However, it kinda seems superfluous. The kid clearly says he had it in three-shot burst, and it operated as indicated on the selector.

The rest of Len's argument beyond his omission that the kid turned the 3 round burst selector on is irrelevant. The olympic arms gun was made with M16 parts, the selector was in three round burst, voila, it produced three rounds, dutifully. It's interesting to think there's some ATF conspiracy theory, but the basic evidence shown doesn't seem to correlate...

Again, I'm not a grabber. I'm a member here obviously because I enjoy my firearms priviledges. I'm just going based on what the documents say vs. what I'm hearing here on Len's recording. I'm just afraid that we sometimes get in the habit of saying "Oh The Big Bad ATF" when here, it's clear to me that what's provided in this discussion as evidence vs. supposition is unnecessarily alarmist based on the evidence provided.

I would encourage anyone else to speak on or against this, I merely want to be better educated on this.. This is the first time I've ever really spoken my mind on one of these issues.

Pete

thats the artical i was referring to. if you could just relax your mind for just a little bit and think,,,,,,,,,, pulling the trigger on a rifle and inturn getting three bullets to fire back to back to back, you can spend 10 years in prison (if you didnt pay the 10.000 dollars and the 200 tax stamp) think about it.. you can do as much or more damage with a 500 hp shelby cobra mustang...it boggles my mind. i cant wait till bump firing is considered full auto.
sorry for the rant, just had to get it off my chest. its been bothering me for some time...

[Dirty_Pete]

Originally Posted by bogey1

thats the artical i was referring to. if you could just relax your mind for just a little bit and think,,,,,,,,,, pulling the trigger on a rifle and inturn getting three bullets to fire back to back to back, you can spend 10 years in prison (if you didnt pay the 10.000 dollars and the 200 tax stamp) think about it.. you can do as much or more damage with a 500 hp shelby cobra mustang...it boggles my mind. i cant wait till bump firing is considered full auto.
sorry for the rant, just had to get it off my chest. its been bothering me for some time...

Yes, but the interesting thing is, if you pull your trigger on a supposed AR-15 semi-auto, in single round mode, and get 3 shots out, that's a misfire. That's not what precipitated the argument in the first place. In this case, the kid turned the switch to three round burst and got three rounds. The only way I know of you'll get that is with the proper parts. The BATF, according to Len Savage, said that any time you get multiple fires from a single trigger pull, it's an automatic weapon. This may be true, but it may only be true in the context of a reliable weapon. It doesn't say in the documentation anywhere that they (the BATF) thought the gun was malfunctioning, that only seems to come from the camp of "oh my the ATF has wronged us so." Again, feel free to correct me.

Whether or not it's right or wrong to have the laws, the fact of the matter as I see it is the guy had the parts to make an automatic rifle, installed in his rifle, and that's a crime.

If I want to brew meth in my basement, who cares? I'm only hurting myself if I use it for my personal enjoyment. Well, the government cares, like it or not. Drug laws are just as stupid as gun laws when you consider their similar rooting in infringing on the rights of the free people. Each has an equal chance of causing death in the misinformed.

Do the laws suck? Yes. Does trying to circumvent the law or repeal the law by misrepresentation help? No.

Only by the proper application of good behavior and proper legislative action can we ever hope to have rules like these lifted. When we do, I can't wait to get my auto sear!!

Pete

[sjl127]

You're missing the point.

The jerkwad (ATF agent) testified that: Read it;

...assistant U.S. Attorney Greg Hannstad, who handled the prosecution.

"Haanstad claimed the law does not exempt a malfunction. He claims that it states 'any weapon that shoots more than once without manual reloading, per function of the trigger is a machinegun.' To clarify when I was on the stand, I asked him, 'Are you saying if I take my Great Granddaddy's double barrel out and I pull one trigger and both barrels go off, it's a machinegun?' He went back to … 'any weapon that shoots…'" Savage said.

###

This is bullshit in its finest.