Voting and driving as rights/ statuatory rights

[ThomasJ]

Originally Posted by unloved

Would everyone please read the 9th ammendment. Okay, now explain to me why anyone thinks that anything has to be specifically addressed by our U.S. Constitution in order to be a right.

Correct, which is why states are allowed to deny the opportunity/privilege to vote to anyone except on the basis of race, sex, and age. For example, they could deny it to the illiterate or to those on welfare. Remember, our electoral college votes for president/vice president, not the population. Sure, some state constitutions tie popular vote to their electors, but that is just legislative grace. The state can pick any group of people - your grandmother's knitting circle, for example - to select its electors.

[exceltoexcel]

Originally Posted by ThomasJ

Correct, which is why states are allowed to deny the opportunity/privilege to vote to anyone except on the basis of race, sex, and age. For example, they could deny it to the illiterate or to those on welfare. Remember, our electoral college votes for president/vice president, not the population. Sure, some state constitutions tie popular vote to their electors, but that is just legislative grace. The state can pick any group of people - your grandmother's knitting circle, for example - to select its electors.

This is totally correct except "possibly" for the fair and equal clause..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_v._Sims

SCOTUS!!!

See Reynolds v. Sims, 377 U.S. 533, 561–62 (1964) ("Undoubtedly, the right of suffrage is a fundamental matter in a free and democratic society."); Yick Wo v. Hopkins, 118 U.S. 356, 370 (1886) ("[Voting] is regarded as a fundamental political right, because preservative of all rights.").

[ThomasJ]

Originally Posted by exceltoexcel

This is totally correct except "possibly" for the fair and equal clause..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_v._Sims

SCOTUS!!!

See Reynolds v. Sims, 377 U.S. 533, 561–62 (1964) ("Undoubtedly, the right of suffrage is a fundamental matter in a free and democratic society."); Yick Wo v. Hopkins, 118 U.S. 356, 370 (1886) ("[Voting] is regarded as a fundamental political right, because preservative of all rights.").

We are not a democratic society; we are a constitutionally representative republic. Fair and equal clause does not apply; it is still the state's discretion. The government schools can teach it all they want, but there is no right to vote granted or guaranteed by the constitution. There are only the removal of certain limits.

[headcase]

SIGH* It pains me that any one on this planet would voice the opinion that the right to vote is not a right at all, especially when they voice the opinion as a fact. The facts are not mitigated by any retard who can write and has a law degree. The facts are as follows:

It was understood and not thought to be necessary to be included in the original Constitution, that the citizens of this new country had the right to vote. Of the people, by the people and for the people means the government is to be selected from the people, elected by the people, and govern for the people, not itself. Article 1 section 4 states that "The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof;...". This means the states can decide when, where, and how the elections are held, not who gets to vote. The states arbitrarily deciding who could and could not vote, led to amendments dealing with the subject. The 14th Amendment section 2 provides that "But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State." Which means that if a state restricts the right of any citizen(at that time it was commonly held that for a citizen to have rights, said citizen was male and at least 21) to vote for any reason other than having been convicted of a crime, their representation in congress would be decreased proportionally. It is the first time that the right of citizens to vote is mentioned specifically in the constitution, but it has been implied since the residents of this land decided to rebel against the monarchy.

The 15th Amendment goes on to define further that the right to vote shall not be barred to anyone on the basis of race, color, or previous condition of servitude. That was done so that former slaves and other previously indentured peoples, had federal protection of their rights.

The 19th Amendment goes on to further say that women must be recognized as citizens and given the same rights as men, specifically the right to vote.

The 24th Amendment goes on to further say that the right to vote can not be denied due to failure to pay taxes.

The 26th Amendment goes on to further say that the age to exercise the right to vote shall be lowered to 18.

How any person with the intelligence to be able to read and comprehend what they read, can put forth the notion that voting is not a right in this country, when it is clearly spelled out as such at least 5 separate times in Amendments to the Constitution, and the first reference clearly implying that the right was obviously presumed beforehand, is beyond reason.

ETA~ I beg to differ in your assessment of the type of government we have. What we actually have is a democratically elected representitive republic. The Constitution very clearly states in it's second sentence, "The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States,...". The People, the Citizens.

[ThomasJ]

Originally Posted by headcase

SIGH* It pains me that any one on this planet would voice the opinion that the right to vote is not a right at all, especially when they voice the opinion as a fact. The facts are not mitigated by any retard who can write and has a law degree.

Because it is a fact. Your amendments have already been addressed. There is no constitutionally guaranteed right to vote. It doesn't exist.

[pex]

Voting certainly is a privilege, just ask the unfree persons, those under the age of 18, the mentally incompetent, and those not in jail...

this is no different from the right to keep and bear arms. Try asking the people who need a permit to carry...and how about that they must be 21? What is there to say about a system that prevents one from purchasing firearms based solely on being placed 'under information with the court'...no grand jury indictment, and no conviction? Maybe it's okay to keep and bear arms, but we'll just call "ammo" not "arms" and therefore we'll make it illegal to possess or sell ammo. Let's make it prohibitive to start a business in arms, and that to sell any arm, you must be selling to a business or from a business. A right?

These may also exist as rights, but they are certainly abridged by our government. Our government has not since granted us pardon from its own heinous crimes, and has carried them on for some time.

[chrisjames_71]

Originally Posted by exceltoexcel

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/06...chap73toc.html


Here is the beginning of the driving statute http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/06...chap73toc.html

You'll have to weave through the web of laws to find out what is necessary to meet the statutory right to drive...

Thats funny, considering the State of PA calls it a PRIVILEGE. I believe the term is "operating privilege". You may want to read Chapter 15 of the PA Vehicle Code Title 75. Pay particular attention to Subchapter B.
Even better, I copied a little bit of it for you:

SUBCHAPTER B
COMPREHENSIVE SYSTEM FOR DRIVER
EDUCATION AND CONTROL
Sec.
1531. Administration of system by department.
1532. Suspension of operating privilege.
1533. Suspension of operating privilege for failure to respond
to citation.

1539. Suspension of operating privilege on accumulation of
points.
1540. Surrender of license.
1541. Period of disqualification, revocation or suspension of
operating privilege.
1542. Revocation of habitual offender's license.
1543. Driving while operating privilege is suspended or
revoked.
1544. Additional period of revocation or suspension.
1545. Restoration of operating privilege.

I deleted a few areas, but feel free to go read it. I am pretty sure when you are going through the process of getting the license, the paperwork tells you it is a privilege. Nowhere does it say it is a "right"

[mjfletcher]

Originally Posted by ThomasJ

Seriously, I urge you to do some research regarding the "right" to vote. In your effort to make some of those words in bold, you left out the important ones that follow "on account of".

Which part of "The right of the citizens to vote" is it that you failed to undersand? That is the clearest statement in the universe that voting is a right.

As to you attempt to claim he words that follow somehow say otherwise:

Amend 15: shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state
Amend 19: shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state
Amend 26: shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any state

States were passing laws denying US citizens the right to vote based on age, sex, and race. Those amendments were added to the Constitution to end those States violation of citizens right to vote. Said right was already recognized prior to those amendments being added to the constitution.

[mjfletcher]

Originally Posted by ThomasJ

Correct, which is why states are allowed to deny the opportunity/privilege to vote to anyone except on the basis of race, sex, and age.

I have yet to find anything in the constitution that refers to the privelige to vote. Several references to the right to vote are there, no none to privelige.

[mjfletcher]

Originally Posted by ThomasJ

We are not a democratic society; we are a constitutionally representative republic. Fair and equal clause does not apply; it is still the state's discretion. The government schools can teach it all they want, but there is no right to vote granted or guaranteed by the constitution. There are only the removal of certain limits.

The removal of certain limits to......

That would be the right of citizens to vote, as explicitly stated in the Constitution.