16 of my firearms seized without cause

[NineseveN]

To try and make a long story short, back on February 5th of this year, when I got home from a local pseudo PAFOA.org gathering, I started to unlock, clean and inspect some of my firearms that I planned to take to the PAFOA.org shoot at PMSC that coming weekend. About 40 minutes into my cleaning routine, my girlfriend came home, so I left the spare room in the back where I keep most of my guns and went to the kitchen to greet her. She was visibly upset and we had an argument that lasted about 10-15 minutes or so. Then we broke the discussion off as we weren’t really getting anywhere (most married/partnered folks know this drill) and she went into the shower. While we were arguing, something seemed very off about her, I couldn’t quite articulate it, but it just felt wrong to me for some reason. She was in the bathroom for about 30-40 minutes, 20 of that spent in the shower. Towards the end of that time she began screaming and yelling, not at me or even about me, but about nonsensical things. This went on for another 15-20 minutes or so, maybe more, I can’t be sure of the time really.

In short, she suffered a severe anxiety/panic attack and I called 911 as I didn’t know what to do otherwise as this was such a serious departure from the norm. While on the phone with the dispatcher, I retrieved the firearms from the spare room and placed them in the living room where I was so I could keep an eye on them. The police showed up and went in to talk to her. The sergeant on the scene kept coming out to talk to me periodically to let me know how she was doing or to clarify information. At some point, the sergeant told me he got the idea that she attacked and/or threatened me, which I explained was not the case and went through the story again. I explained it a total of 4 times throughout the time they were here talking to her because what she was telling them, according to them, was random and didn’t make much sense at all. The sergeant in charge came out to me and told me that they were going to get her some help, something was definitely wrong (in his words) as she seemed to be confusing events in the past with the present and there was no clear perspective of what she was saying. He told me that was being difficult, but not hostile, but not to worry, they were taking her to the hospital to get checked out.

As they were escorting her out, I heard some shouting and the sounds of a scuffle, (I was told to stay in the hallway of my apartment building so I couldn’t see what was going on). A few seconds later, a handful of police officers came through the door, dragging her screaming down the stairs.

Three of the officers came back upstairs along with two others and told me she was going to be charged with domestic violence related offenses. My jaw nearly dropped to the floor. I again told the officers that nothing like that had happened and argued that you can't take the word of someone having a psychotic episode as the sole evidence and then cart them off to the mental hospital and call it credible. I emphatically stated repeatedly that nothing of the sort occurred. They said it didn't matter, they were charging her and it would be sorted out in court.

Then they told me that they were confiscating all of my firearms. I asked if I was being charged with or investigated for committing a crime, they replied to the negative, but that they were taking the guns anyway. I asked them under what law or legal authority, they replied “this is just what we're doing.”

I told them I did not consent to the removal of my property but that I would not interfere, but again reiterated that I did not believe the seizure to be legitimate. They then asked me to gather up any firearms in my home, which I refused stating that I would not be touching a firearm in front of them for any reason. They conducted a search of the premises and ended up collecting 16 firearms in total (a few in the living room that had come from the spare room as mentioned earlier, the Ruger handgun and a bunch of other guns in cases packed away in the spare room). They did not know how to operate some of them to check for safety and they asked me to do it and also to help pack the guns. I again stated that I would not be handling any firearms in their presence and that I did not consent to the confiscation of my property in the first place. I did express concerns about my property being damaged while in their care and they assured me that the items in question would be handled carefully (I have a significant monetary investment in my firearms collection, like many of us I’m sure). They finally figured everything out as best they could and packed the guns up and took them off of my property, leaving the locks with me and stating that someone would return with a receipt as per Pennsylvania law.

Shortly after those officers left with my firearms, my girlfriend called me from the hospital to let me know what things she'd need me to bring her while she was there, she voluntarily signed herself in and would be there for at least 72 hours. While I was on the phone, one of the officers came back with the receipt for 15 of my guns with one being absent. I asked about this and he said they couldn't get the bag open and asked me to write it in and he'd initial it. He then told me that they were charging her with various degrees of assault and resisting arrest and that she would not be allowed back home until it all got sorted out at trial. I asked under what law as I was not pressing charges, not asking for any type of restraining order and that again, no violence occurred, domestic or otherwise. He couldn't answer that, only that she couldn't come back, that's just the way it was. I then asked him if I'm the victim, which I’m not, but if you say I am, then under what law are you confiscating my property? He replied that it was just what they were doing and it would all be sorted out later. He left.

When my girlfriend went before the magistrate after being released from the hospital, she asked if she could return home, the magistrate asked if she wanted to go home, she replied that she did and he told her that she could. The assistant DA came to see us with our lawyer and he told us that he'd offer ARD and drop the felonies, but that I'd have to get a court order to get my guns back (*PA criminal procedure rule 588).

We talked it over with the lawyer and his advice was that based on how crooked the cops can be out here (his words, not ours) and the old-boy type network, that if he couldn't get everything dismissed, he'd suggest she take the ARD as it would in effect go away forever and that even though she did not commit any of those offenses, it comes down to her word against the word of 5 to 7 police officers and there was a definite risk to that. He said he'd file the motion to return my guns that day and I should have them back soon.

Two days later, I get a call at my home from the sergeant that was on the scene that night asking if my girlfriend was there, I told him she was but that she wasn't talking to him without an attorney present. He jut asked me to make sure she came up to the station sometime soon to get fingerprinted since they didn't do that when they arrested her. I told him we'd speak with the attorney and that someone would be accompanying her in any event. I then asked when they were returning my guns and he said as soon as they're ordered to.

On September 17th, I received a copy of the court order for the return of my property from the possession of the police, which was dated September 10th, 2008. That afternoon, I got in touch with a detective who handles the evidence room and arranged to retrieve my property (which I did that same afternoon).

My property was confiscated and withheld from me for 7 and a-half months, and I feel it was used as a pressure point to encourage my girlfriend to take the ARD plea agreement and as far as I’m concerned, the only reason they pushed charges in the first place is because they got physical with her (she was bruised from head to toe afterwards) because nothing, not even a hint of any of that was mentioned until after they dragged her down the stairs. Also, ARD is not normally offered for so-called violent offenders according to most people I’ve spoken with about it, yet they practically gave it to her during the conference at the magistrate’s office on a silver platter, and she was, at that time, still charged with a felonious assault and a bunch of domestic violence related offenses (they seemed to really pack the charges on). They dropped the felony that day. Her final hearing for the ARD is in early October. When the victim’s advocate from the office of the courts contacted me, I stated in writing that no such violence occurred and that the charges were without merit (in more words than that obviously), but of course, they’re still going forward with the charges. I also requested that my letter be shared with the judge in the matter, but again, apparently it’s all for naught unless she wants to take the chance and fight it.

While the firearms were in the possession of the police department, they involved the Pennsylvania State Police, who placed phone calls to the dealers that sold me the guns to track them down for some reason. I only know this because one of the dealers here in town, whom I've purchased most of my firearms from over the last three years called and asked me why he received 10 calls about my guns from the State Police. After that and having my property taken from me for no reason, I felt like I was being treated like a criminal. I've worked hard to be an honest, upstanding citizen, I have a government security clearance for a position of public trust as part of my employment and I've never been issued more than a speeding/traffic ticket in my entire adult life (I'm 31 years old).


Now, I know that I do have options as far as a recourse for what I feel was completely unlawful and unacceptable treatment by the authorities in this matter. I know that I can begin filing a private criminal complaint with the Attorney General's office for the Pennsylvania statute on Official Oppression as well as contacting the FBI to make a federal complaint for the “deprivation of rights under the color of law” on 4th Amendment grounds (unreasonable seizure). But I want to engage a civil attorney about it first before I go that route (that statute of limitations is 5 years on the Federal charge), not sure about the state charges.

Even though they processed this as a Domestic Violence case despite my objections and official statement to the court adamantly denying anything of the sort occurred, my understanding of Pennsylvania law is that they only had the legal authority to confiscate any weapon alleged to have been used in the crime/s in question, not to go searching other rooms in my living space and confiscating anything in a case that resembled a firearm that they could find.

So at this point, I’m shopping for an attorney in the matter and also putting ten guns and various other items up for sale on this forum and to some friends outside of the PAFOA. Bills are paid and the attorney already has his money, but I’ve got debt that needs paid off now and well, quite honestly, I want to have some extra emergency cash to move out of this area if I need to (I’m already planning to move by the spring anyway, probably towards Latrobe/Greensburg as I’ll still be working here). I don’t want to go into details, but this whole ordeal has taken a toll both on the two of us as individuals and also our relationship (friends, lovers etc…), and I’d probably feel less stress if I just dropped the issue, but I really can’t allow myself to do that. What they did was wrong and more importantly, illegal as far as I’m concerned, and something needs to be done about that.

And just to get this out of the way, I really don’t do donations or anything as money is tight for almost everyone in this shitstorm of an economy, which is why I’m selling the guns I am. I wanted to part with most of what I’m selling anyway, but of course, I couldn’t until I got them back.


Link to the for sale thread: http://www.pafoa.org/forum/firearms-...-together.html

If you are or you know of anyone that might be interested, please spread the word where appropriate.


The reason I did not disclose this when it happened or any time up until now was due to the circus that some of these types of threads (OC threads mostly) inevitably become. I wanted to respect her privacy but also, I wasn’t prepared to deal with a bunch of speculation about the person I care most about in this world. I’m still not prepared for that, so I’d ask that such speculation is off-limits. This thread is about what happened to me (which is nothing at her hands), I don’t care if you think she might be a raving homicidal psycho that stabbed 42 people on the bus, they took my firearms for crimes they allege that she committed (which again, she didn’t) where I was, according to them, the victim (which again, I wasn’t). They disarmed the alleged victim of an offense that never occurred, and that’s where my focus is on this. I probably won’t be responding to this thread until a lawyer says I can (or tells me there is no lawsuit or actionable offenses to be found in the matter), so arguments probably won’t get much attention.


Thanks all. Now I have to find myself a lawyer to talk to...






*Rule 588

Rule 588. Motion for Return of Property.
(A) A person aggrieved by a search and seizure, whether or not executed pursuant to a warrant, may move for the return of the property on the ground that he or she is entitled to lawful possession thereof. Such motion shall be filed in the court of common pleas for the judicial district in which the property was seized.

(B) The judge hearing such motion shall receive evidence on any issue of fact necessary to the decision thereon. If the motion is granted, the property shall be restored unless the court determines that such property is contraband, in which case the court may order the property to be forfeited.

[Kaos]

WOW...I'll keep you in my thoughts.

Good Luck!

[billamj]

I don't even know where to start. Let me know if I can help!

[Elmar]

Wow good luck and kick some tyrant-police ass.

[normanvin]

I am glad you got your stuff returned.

[beerhunter]

Sorry to hear about this episode. I hope you are able and willing to follow through with righting what seems to be a wrong from leo.
I'm sure you have already, but reconsider liquidation of the collection.

On a side note, If you happen to be around State College anytime soon, I can probably "donate" and throw some your way for the Rossi. Atleast I will use the word "donate" when I'm explaining yet another handgun to the girlfriend who already thinks I'm an f'in gun nut.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Koli01]

Best of Luck.

Hope the GF is alright.

[Penguini66]

Best of luck to both you you.

I'm still in a little bit of shock after reading that.

[Hawk]

Dude! I knew something was wrong with my shoot'n buddy. Sorry to hear about your troubles. If you need anything let me know.

[knight0334]

Oh wow man! that really F'd up!

I really dont have any advice to give you, this is beyond anything I've experienced or researched.

Good luck with things.