Out of state carry in School Zone Illegal?

[tl_3237]

I seem to remember that there was an earlier thread touching on the issue of the 18 USC 922(q) Gun Free School Zone Act and the exemption for licensed individuals at §922(q)(2)(B)(ii):

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

The issue was whether a license issued by state A and reciprocally recognized by state B would qualify for the above GFSZA exemption while in a school zone in state B.

The original conclusion was that the exemption applied and the rationale went something like this -- the chief LEO (Attorney General) of state B, by entering into the reciprocity agreement, effectively issued a state B blanket license to state A licensees. Furthermore, by entering into the reciprocity agreement state B has adopted state A’s individual qualification procedure as a viable adjunct to state B’s qualification procedures. Thus the verification and licensing requirements of the exemption were satisfied.

On a separate thread, BCI Instructor (http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed...s-pa-ltcf.html (FL vs. PA LTCF) post #6) has provided a reference to a 2002 ATF letter (http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf) which states

"For purposes of the GFSZA, in order to fall within this limited exception, the permit must be issued by the State itself. Accordingly, your possession of a Virginia concealed weapons permit would not exempt you from the prohibitions of the Gun-Free School Zones Act in States that honor other State permits by legal agreement."

If the ATF letter is correct it would seem to eviscerate carrying in reciprocal states, especially when traveling through urban areas as it would be almost impossible to know, much less avoid, being at some time within 1000 feet (approx 2 blocks) of a school.

Re-phrased as a practical question, if I have a Pa LTCF and no WV license, can I carry in a school zone in WV without violating the GFSZA?

Help me understand this

[Statkowski]

Re-phrased as a practical question, if I have a Pa LTCF and no WV license, can I carry in a school zone in WV without violating the GFSZA?

No, you can not.

That being said

a) Nobody has been prosecuted under the new, improved law.

b) Could or would a West Virginia LEO take any action on such? Highly unlikely. If you're okay with state reciprocity or recognition, they're not going to bother.

[idpasharpshooter]

i don't meant to hijack your thread but this is news to me. my question is does this law allow someone with a ltcf to carry in a school or just in a school zone.

[fingers80002]

Originally Posted by idpasharpshooter

i don't meant to hijack your thread but this is news to me. my question is does this law allow someone with a ltcf to carry in a school or just in a school zone.

IANAL, but posts by more knowledgable people say yes.

[headcase]

Originally Posted by tl_3237

I seem to remember that there was an earlier thread touching on the issue of the 18 USC 922(q) Gun Free School Zone Act and the exemption for licensed individuals at §922(q)(2)(B)(ii):




The issue was whether a license issued by state A and reciprocally recognized by state B would qualify for the above GFSZA exemption while in a school zone in state B.

The original conclusion was that the exemption applied and the rationale went something like this -- the chief LEO (Attorney General) of state B, by entering into the reciprocity agreement, effectively issued a state B blanket license to state A licensees. Furthermore, by entering into the reciprocity agreement state B has adopted state A’s individual qualification procedure as a viable adjunct to state B’s qualification procedures. Thus the verification and licensing requirements of the exemption were satisfied.

On a separate thread, BCI Instructor (http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed...s-pa-ltcf.html (FL vs. PA LTCF) post #6) has provided a reference to a 2002 ATF letter (http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf) which states


If the ATF letter is correct it would seem to eviscerate carrying in reciprocal states, especially when traveling through urban areas as it would be almost impossible to know, much less avoid, being at some time within 1000 feet (approx 2 blocks) of a school.

Re-phrased as a practical question, if I have a Pa LTCF and no WV license, can I carry in a school zone in WV without violating the GFSZA?

Help me understand this

I think the ATF is out of it's over extended authority mind. As you state, it would be practically impossible to travel anywhere without entering a school zone. The law states you must be licensed by the state... not that the license must be issued by the state. Reciprocity is a legal agreement between two states saying that if a person is licensed in one state, then they are also licensed in the other state. That is how it works with every single other type of license in states that have reciprocity with each other for specific licenses. IANAL, but there is no practical way to enforce that law any other way.

Originally Posted by idpasharpshooter

i don't meant to hijack your thread but this is news to me. my question is does this law allow someone with a ltcf to carry in a school or just in a school zone.

The federal law allows people who are licensed by the state the school is in, to carry in a school zone, which includes the school. State laws vary though, as seen in Pa. For further discussion on carry in Pa. schools search "school carry".

[tl_3237]

Originally Posted by headcase

The law states you must be licensed by the state... not that the license must be issued by the state. Reciprocity is a legal agreement between two states saying that if a person is licensed in one state, then they are also licensed in the other state.

I can see a valid defense that the reciprocity is the issuance of a license by state B.

The much more gray area however is where state B's LE authorities are suppose to verify an "individual's" qualification but state B makes no such effort and relies solely on state A's efforts.

[headcase]

Originally Posted by tl_3237

I can see a valid defense that the reciprocity is the issuance of a license by state B.

The much more gray area however is where state B's LE authorities are suppose to verify an "individual's" qualification but state B makes no such effort and relies solely on state A's efforts.

The reciprocity agreement means that the state has decided that if it is ok with state A then it is ok with state B. The attorney general's offices review the qualifications of the other state and determine that they meet or exceed their own, before entering into the agreement, thereby satisfying the requirement.......

[tl_3237]

Originally Posted by Statkowski

No, you can not.

That being said

a) Nobody has been prosecuted under the new, improved law.

b) Could or would a West Virginia LEO take any action on such? Highly unlikely. If you're okay with state reciprocity or recognition, they're not going to bother.

On February 6, 2002, a federal grand jury indicted Smith on four counts. Count One charged Smith with possession of a firearm in a school zone, in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(q), 924(a).

http://altlaw.org/v1/cases/79680

[headcase]

Originally Posted by tl_3237

On February 6, 2002, a federal grand jury indicted Smith on four counts. Count One charged Smith with possession of a firearm in a school zone, in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(q), 924(a).

http://altlaw.org/v1/cases/79680

Did he hold a valid license? I am too tired to chase it...

[Statkowski]

In the case cited, having a firearm in a school zone was the least of his problems. Doesn't look like he had a license, either.