Hoplophobes and kids

[pex]

Originally Posted by Bruce

What I can't seem to understand is why so many adults seem so preoccupied with a child (any child) being exposed to the sight of a firearm? I didn't understand the persistence that adults all around me had back then, and I don't understand the anecdotes I read in these forums now.

You're asking the wrong question, because it is doubtfully a firearms issue.

You could ask the similarly question of why parents go to excessive lengths to 'protect' their children from sex, drugs, and vulgarity, in a family that reasonably approaches firearms.

I'd say it's one society's biggest illnesses. Generating children apparently isn't just the act of biologically growing a new organism...it apparently also causes (at this time) unexplainable effects to the schemas of adults' brains who have generated new life.

This change inhibits the adult's ability to think rationally, but is quite varied in its manifestation. That's why sometimes you would see it with firearms, but other times sex, and at other times drugs or vulgarity. This change apparently inhibits the connective use of facts and reason, suggesting that the amygdala and medial prefrontal cortex may have undergone changes. (Some scientists suggest that there are temporary fluxes in those areas of the brain, as well as the anterior cingulate cortex, when a person enters and uses an automobile on public roads.)

As with nearly all human discoveries, not everyone undergoes those changes, and a small number of humans will have genetic evolutionary or mutative changes that inhibit or prevent such effects. Because the brain appears mentally malleable and sometimes miraculously resilient, scientists suggest that some humans may be able to reverse the damage, or even prevent it, without the use of gene therapy or drugs, using a series of cognitive games to improve the connection of the parts of the brain that deal with memory and reasoning, and to improve the availability of those components to the conscious brain.

[PennsyPlinker]

Originally Posted by pex

You could ask the similarly question of why parents go to excessive lengths to 'protect' their children from sex, drugs, and vulgarity, in a family that reasonably approaches firearms.

I don't think this is a valid comparison here. Firearms are tools. Sex, drugs (or more accurately drug use), and to a lesser extent vulgarity are all behaviors that can and do have lifelong effects on people. Say what you will about morality, but there is plenty of evidence that casual sex produces lots of diseased people, and even more people with dysfunctional abilities when it comes to long lasting relationships.

The same goes with drug use, whether it be pot, booze, or lots of other stuff. Casual use can and often does turn into abuse, which in turn affects a person negatively in the social arena.

Vulgarity is less so, but then let's remember the root definition of vulgar - lack of good breeding or taste. One my find plenty of companionship with those of similar outlook, but some are often left wondering why they don't advance in other areas.

If you are going to compare guns to something, compare them to table saws, chainsaws, lawnmowers, or other inanimate, but potentially dangerous tools, for that is what they are.

[pex]

Originally Posted by PennsyPlinker

[...]Firearms are tools.
Sex, drugs[, and] vulgarity are all behaviors that can and do have lifelong effects on people.
[S]ex produces lots of diseased people, and [...] dysfunctional abilities[...].
The same goes with drug use[...].
[The] vulgar[...] don't advance in other areas.

An impossible argument...

Firearms, violence, sex, drugs, and vulgarity are all tools.
Firearms, violence, sex, drugs, and vulgarity, all casually placed on a countertop, have a tendency not to harm simply by their being.
Firearms, violence, sex, drugs, and vulgarity do not have inherently evil and harmful properties.

One could say that the ownership of firearms has caused all sorts of the same problems you tell us of all of these other vices...
That the mere appearance, existence, or handling, creates an addiction (have you ever read about those who impulse buy or maintain 'ridiculous' collections of firearms?)
What about those who believe that the mere appearance, existence, or handling causes the human brain to tend toward violence?
And then there is the use of firearms that tends to accidental/negligent discharge (the constitution certainly doesn't require reasonable training!), and the increase on suicide rates, the mass killing sprees and the ease at which a person can kill with a firearm...

All of these can be exacerbated by people problems, and when we refuse to confront them, we retard the rational infrastructure that we should be instead helping to develop within our children. We consequently wonder why they fail to think critically and continue to vote for two-party elected officials... well, someone is certainly to blame.

Nothing in life is totally risk free and the best way to manage life is to be informed with a well-developed ability to reason. Gaps in that are made by the lies and taboos society persists in passing down.

[truecrimson]

Originally Posted by ricbri69

Not trying to thread jack, but I am curious if anyone has any insight into curing holophobes... my wife grew up in a gun-free environment, then spent the rest of her teen years in a big city suburb where guns were a big no... needless to say, I wasn't as big into guns in the early years of our relationship because of other responsibilities and a shift in my priorities. Anyways, I am getting back into shooting and trying to convince her that guns are not bad...She's getting there, and has *once* shot my p22, but still seems to have that mentality that guns are taboo and acts nervous around them... I am doing everything I can to foster her seeing guns as OK, including spending my new pistol money on a shotgun to shoot trap with, because she seems more comfortable with a long gun and trap is a good "fun" shooting activity.

Once again, not that I want to threadjack, but any insight into helping out with holophobes is greatly appreciated.

I just asked my fiancee what helped her. It seems a combination of slow, steady, continuous exposure, it becoming obvious I wasn't backing down, and her getting tired of fighting about it. Add to that the growing crime and violence problems, and her understanding that when seconds count the cops are only minutes away. She is still afraid of guns, but she sleeps with a .38 next to her. I didn't pressure her to get into guns, that is happenning slowly. I just refused to give up mine, refused to not get more, took her shooting, and slowly taught her about the ones we have.

Lately our issue is OC. She isn't against it per se, but she doesn't want the hassle, and is afraid I'm going to get into big trouble that I can't get out of. The OC dinner in Pottstown really helped a lot. Monica got see plenty of "normal" people openly carrying. But then the incident Sunday really shook her up, and that pisses me off more than anything. When I told her a few minutes ago I going to OC to make the report on Friday she said "I won't be able to come bail you out!"

[PennsyPlinker]

Originally Posted by pex

An impossible argument...

...

One could say that the ownership of firearms has caused all sorts of the same problems you tell us of all of these other vices...

No, it's not an impossible argument. First of all, you are putting words in my mouth. I never used the word vice, I used the word behavior. The two are quite different. Your assumption is that they are vices, or that some people consider them vices. But all the things you mentioned are behaviors. At least, it appeared to me that you intended it that way. I am open to correction if I misunderstood your intent.

I happen to believe that sex is not only permissible, it is encouraged in the proper setting. Improper behavior leads to VD, divorce, broken homes, etc.

Drugs can be used beneficially, and the same drugs that work wonders can also be abused. That is a behavior issue as well.

Vulgar language is less so, but still affects peoples' lives when used improperly. In fact, I just taught a class on that very issue last week.

It is one thing to teach children to be afraid of people who misuse a firearm and another thing entirely to be afraid of the firearm itself.

Misuse of a firearm is a behavior. The behavior does not result from the presence of the firearm, it is a predisposition of the user. Don't confuse the tool with the behavior. We chose to raise our children "protecting" them from illicit sex, illegal drug use, and as much as possible, vulgarity. They all seem to be doing pretty well, and are not afraid of firearms, fornicators, foul mouths, or fools. But they do know when to avoid them.

[Bruce]

Originally Posted by pex

I'd say it's one society's biggest illnesses. Generating children apparently isn't just the act of biologically growing a new organism...it apparently also causes (at this time) unexplainable effects to the schemas of adults' brains who have generated new life.

Okay, so... you're saying that parents, in general and as a result of some biological change, are, basically - just plain ef'in nuts.

Well, if they really are that 'mentally unstable', and this can be proven clinically somehow, can we at least disable their right to vote then?

Anyway, then how do you explain, with this chemical-brain-thingy, the reactions of those adults who are not parents - meaning those adults who have not reproduced, yet they adamantly insist that children (in general, who are not their own) need to be sheltered from the sight of firearms?
.

[headcase]

I will not pretend to be able to get inside pex's head, but I believe his points are very valid. I do not consider a firearm a behavior, as are the other compared things, but they are all lumped together as BAD, by certain people. I know that as a parent, I believe in being truthful with your kids. I do tend to shield my son from blatantly sexual images, if for no other reason than to try to keep his mind from going there so young. It may not be logical, but neither was keeping the Easter bunny and Santa traditions alive. If you consider something bad, dirty, horrible, or dangerous, when you become a parent, you tend to instill those same beliefs in your children as part of your job as preparer. It may be biological. I don't believe that pex was so much comparing firearms to the behaviors listed, as he was commenting on how they are all linked that way in the segment of the population being discussed in this thread. Even if he was, I see the connection made by others myself, and while I don't agree with it, I can understand it.

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by Bruce

WTF, exactly, is the problem with Hoplophobes and kids?

well, the problem is that hoplophobes have kids.

(and then teach them to be hoplophobes).

What I can't seem to understand is why so many adults seem so preoccupied with a child (any child) being exposed to the sight of a firearm?

i think because their parents were pre-occupied with it and brainwashed them into thinking the same thing.

it's no different from racism really. most adult racists are racists because their parents taught them to be racist...and their parent's parents taught them to be racist, etc.

same holds true with other irrational, fear-based ideologies like "guns are evil".

at some point, some people (like you) learn to think for themselves and break the chain, but many don't.

What is it, exactly, that adults seem to want to shelter these children from?

anything which they do not understand.

[pex]

Originally Posted by Bruce

Anyway, then how do you explain, with this chemical-brain-thingy, the reactions of those adults who are not parents - meaning those adults who have not reproduced, yet they adamantly insist that children (in general, who are not their own) need to be sheltered from the sight of firearms?

All I was really trying to explain is that many people with streaks of rationality pre-parenthood often lose all semblance of reason after conception. It's quite a ridiculous phenomena.

I will admit that was a slight jump, but most of the post was intended to be humorous even thought it illustrated a very real predicament. I do not discount the significant number of people who were not even reasonable pre-parenthood.

But then you might ask where all these ridiculous non-parents came from, and the answer is probably that they were most influenced by ridiculous adults, most of whom were probably parents, altogether failing to instill the kind of core components in the youths' minds that would help utilize the rational mind.

It goes like this: maybe pounding into a child's mind that firearms aren't inherently bad will prevent them from becoming anti-gun later in life, but without maintaining that kind of education for all things, it's entirely likely cognitive dissonance will shake their minds later in life, and may lead them to the dark side...because they were given right and wrong, but not how to ascertain it.

[PennsyPlinker]

Originally Posted by pex

All I was really trying to explain is that many people with streaks of rationality pre-parenthood often lose all semblance of reason after conception. It's quite a ridiculous phenomena.

We called that growing up. Seriously, there was a lot of stuff I did before I had kids, that now I look back on and cannot believe that I was a) that stupid, or b) I survived. This does not apply to everything of course, but there is a lot that does fall under these two categories.

Originally Posted by pex

It goes like this: maybe pounding into a child's mind that firearms aren't inherently bad will prevent them from becoming anti-gun later in life, but without maintaining that kind of education for all things, it's entirely likely cognitive dissonance will shake their minds later in life, and may lead them to the dark side...because they were given right and wrong, but not how to ascertain it.

I agree with you completely here. People need to develop the reasoning ability that is sadly lacking in many of our citizens today. It is all well and good to teach a child something, but if you do not teach the why of it, they are going to have trouble later on.