Jacked up in 30th St. Station - Phila.

[lprgcFrank]

Writing this on the bench at 30th st. as I wait for my train.

Unpleasant OC encounter today coming from the Philly airport.
no issues in the airport - or waiting for the train.
A conductor took exception to the 1911 and wanted me to decock or conceal.
I told him no and offered him a brochure. He declined. I got on train. ANother conductor stoped by and asked me if he could have a copy of the brochure - I gladly gave him one. He was interested in his firearm rights.

There were 3 Amtrak PD waiting for me at 30th St. They told me that the conductor reported a man with a gun on the train and that they neded to investigate.

We stayed on the platform.

Sgt. Cameron did most of the talking. Officers Gillii and Zwantz were there.
They told me that 30th street station (Septa) was their jurisdiction and that no openly carried firearms are allowed and that no one is allowed to have a firearm on a SEPTA train except for police. I asked him for a law citation.

For "my safety", they removed the 1911 and my J frame. Since this is Philly, and you need a LTCF to open carry - I provided my LTCF and drivers license. They wanted to know where I was going and where I was coming from. I declined to provide andwers without an attorney.

He said that I thought that I knew more about his job than him. I said that I appreciated the difficult job that he has and that I am only informed as to my rights.

They called my LTCF in to the Delaware County found out that it was valid and told me that the Sheriff's office said that it was for concealed carry,
The Sgt tried to make it an issue that it was a Delaware County LTCF and not a Philly one. I don't think he ever saw a LTCF before. I told him that it was statewide. They told me that carrying openly was making a scene and wanted to know if I was on any drugs. I said no.

The Sgt kept telling me that I can't carry openly and that if I come back here I will be arrested for disturbing the peace. He was not interested in Commonwealth vs Hawkins or any statute - his miond was made up.

They asked if these firearms were registered to me. They were surprised when I said that there is no registration of firearms in PA - but that they could check the PSP's "sales database' if they wanted. They did not run the serial numbers of the firearms.

They reported my being stopped as an issue to the Delaware County Sheriff and said that the Sheriff may want to revoke my permit. The Sgt. said that I had to have the firearm unloaded or be on the way to a range or a place of purchase.

After they made a few phone calls they decided I was not wanted for anything and then Officer Zwantz gave me back my unloaded J frame - I reloaded it and put it back in my pocket. The Sgt. gave me back my loaded 1911. I put it back in my holster. They did practice food muzzle and trigger discipline in transferring the firearms. The Sgt. told me to put it in my bag. I declined. They told me to put it where it could not be seen. I took out my spare pocket holster and put the 1911 in my pocket.

The Sgt continued to tell me his opinion on why open carry is not a good thing.
I asked where I needed to send my letter regarding the encounter to and he provided me th aname of Capt. Maureen Powers.

Oh - and tey made me miss my train.....

Only thing I forgot to do was ask if I was being detained. Once they had the 1911 - I wasn't going anywhere without it.

[bogey1]

GREAT STORY damn, sometimes i wish i was a lawyer..

[lildobe]

Greeaaaat.....

Well, at least there is already a court case you can point too about revoking a LTCF for OC... I'ts only a county court, but still, it shoudl make DelCo think twice if they try it.

Good luck, and let us know how things work out with your follow up.

[Pa. Patriot]

I always wanted to meet some of Phillie's finest... Looks like I might finally get to do that...


Great job, Frank. It's a shame when police wil tell you to your face about laws that DO NOT EXIST. Tis OK, Me thinks they'll be educated soon.

PS: Frank ~ I PM'd you

[PisnNapalm]

Damn... Well... I look forward to reading the letter you're going to send the Captain. Maybe it will be used to educate those officers.

I can't say that I'm surprised. It was bound to happen down there in Philly.

[jwmoore]

told me that the Sheriff's office said that it was for concealed carry

It sounds like DelCo Sheriff needs a reminder note too.

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by jwmoore

It sounds like DelCo Sheriff needs a reminder note too.

Delco sheriff (McGinn) is a known problem.
He has been severely negligent in the performance of his duties and is in constant violation of the law (18PACS6109) in regards to license issuance.

He is already on thin ice. The last thing McGinn would be wise doing is to pull Franks permit. Unless he want to be remembered for the shitstorm it will create.

[c.sander]

Frank, sorry to hear about your crappy encounter with Amtrak Train Ninjas, glad you left everything fine and with your guns though, let us know if anything comes of this if there is a hearing or meeting somewhere i would gladly attend and would also join you for some OC in 30th street

[ChamberedRound]

"Jacked up" sounds appropriate to me.

As much as I respect law enforcement, I'm really starting to resent the attitudes of many within the profession. Just because one has a badge, gun, and uniform, doesn't allow one to make up arbitrary rules (I won't call them laws, because they aren't) and require compliance with them, using detainment and wrongful arrest as a threat to hold sway over the innocent. And that these officers did just that makes them nothing more than the thugs they claim to be protecting us against.

My apologies to Steve and all the GOOD law enforcement officers out there, but these guys are making me lose faith in all of you. I really hope you LEOs that know the law and the rights of citizens are educating your own, as it's painfully obvious that on the scene of an incident which shouldn't even be an incident, the LEOs aren't listening to law-abiding citizens.

[PA-Joe]

I hope you are going to include a copy of this email from teh Philadelphia DA.

DISTRICT ATTORNEY’S OFFICE
Three South Penn Square
Philadelphia, PA 19107
Phone: 215-686-8000
Fax: 215-563-0047

June 29, 2008

Mr. XXXXXX
XXXXXX@verizon.net

RE: Carrying firearms on public streets

Dear Mr. XXXXXX:

This letter is in response to your inquiry regarding the legality of openly carrying a firearm on the public streets of Philadelphia. Under the laws of the Commonwealth, a gun owner may do so provided that the individual has a valid license to carry pursuant to §6109 of the Pennsylvania Crimes Code.

If you have any further questions regarding this matter please do not hesitate to contact me at the number below.

Sincerely yours,


Patrick Link
Assistant District Attorney
Gun Violence Task Force
(215) 686-9587