Pa. Patriot ARRESTED at the OC dinner @ The Old Country Buffet in Dickson City 5/9

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by phillyd2

Whoa. If this is for the lawsuit showing mental anguish, great and go for it. But....lets not turn the D12 into Rosa Parks

winkey smiley and all, I think I'm somewhat insulted by the above comment... I'm not trying to turn anyone into anything. I was simply posting facts from my camp in response to a single persons comments.

The incident itself is what it is, and you will not see me trying to make it into something it is not.

Originally Posted by phillyd2

I am not going to give anybody advise on what to teach their kids but to me this incident would make a perfect lesson on the real world and how great of a country we do live in.
}snip{

Good suggestions/comments on lessons. However, being that we have tried to make a positive lesson out of it, you must remember the boy is only 6 years old...

So far, the verbal lessons have made far less of an impact on my son than has the image of daddy being arrested. But we're working on it.

[ThomasJ]

Originally Posted by phillyd2 View Post
I am not going to give anybody advise on what to teach their kids but to me this incident would make a perfect lesson on the real world and how great of a country we do live in.{

Abuse of police authority and their ignoring one's constitutional rights does not seem to me to be a perfect lesson on how great of a country we do live in. On the contrary, the actions of Pa Patriot et al. is what makes the perfect lesson on how great of a country we do live in.

[phillyd2]

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

winkey smiley and all, I think I'm somewhat insulted by the above comment... I'm not trying to turn anyone into anything. I was simply posting facts from my camp in response to a single persons comments.

The incident itself is what it is, and you will not see me trying to make it into something it is not.



Good suggestions/comments on lessons. However, being that we have tried to make a positive lesson out of it, you must remember the boy is only 6 years old...

So far, the verbal lessons have made far less of an impact on my son than has the image of daddy being arrested. But we're working on it.

No worries - you know (or should ) that it was not directed at you so if you think harder you will see that no insult was tossed your way.

Good luck on the lessons. I think six is the perfect age to start and could not think of one more important for any citizen to learn. The main point was that Daddy was not and will not be a victim. That's not how we roll - or it use to be not how American's rolled.

[phillyd2]

Originally Posted by ThomasJ

Abuse of police authority and their ignoring one's constitutional rights does not seem to me to be a perfect lesson on how great of a country we do live in. On the contrary, the actions of Pa Patriot et al. is what makes the perfect lesson on how great of a country we do live in.

Maybe we should have a contest on who can most miss the point. Sorry could not resist.

See ya. BTW, why are you not on the beach?

[DaveM55]

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

I have...many months ago when it was suggested by mtbkski...

No reply.




Sure, if they listen... I've been "educating"police for well over a year now. Meanwhile I still OC. When you get right down to it, it's not my responsibility or job to educate the police. But I still do. Why? Because I would prefer people not be confronted by ignorant LEO's. Just like you, but I can only talk to so many LEO's. And then we must consider the majority that refuse to listen or laugh me off. If you read some of the other OC'ers responses to educating the police you will find an overwhelming response of indifference or unwillingness to listen. Meanwhile, I still OC. I'm not going to forgo my rights waiting for MPOETC to do something.

If critics of OC are so concerned that LEO education is the way to go, maybe they should be sending training memo's, etc. too?

That's not directed at you, Dave. I know you have stated you educate fellow officers on OC, Dave, kudos. But I see little or no action on the part of most OC critics...
They often talk about education being the better method but it seems to me the topic is used as a way to criticize OC'ers that get hassled rather than to legitimately help.

I've given up criticizing OC. I'm not a card carrying member of the OC Mafia either. I'd just like to see balance between the freedoms, perks (I just couldn't come up with the right word here, maybe advantages would work, hell I don't know fill in the blank __________ ), risks, and responsibilities of any form of carrying being discussed here without so much drama.

Concerning training here's the difference. Those that don't want to listen to you, HAVE to listen to MPOETC. Some may not even listen to even MPOETC. Nothing I can do about that.

My experience, if ever so short, is the majority will listen with a willingness to learn.

I hope you more than anyone else understands I am legitimately trying to help everyone.

Good luck with your son. If there is anything I can do to help let me know.

[Gary in Pennsylvania]

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

....OC'ers are not outraged at police for something OC'ers did... I mean, I see the whole range of opinions on the culpability of the DCPD in this thread. If you disagree with a percentage of those opinions, IMO, you would be better received by explaining WHY rather than repeating the "mob mentality" references.

Try to point out why you disagree with their position rather than bashing them over the head with it. You've had it happen to you too so you know how it feels, and you know how ineffective it is at convincing anyone.

I look forward to what comes from the bolded statement.

[Gary in Pennsylvania]

Originally Posted by DaveM55

I've given up criticizing OC. I'm not a card carrying member of the OC Mafia either. I'd just like to see balance between the freedoms, perks ([i]I just couldn't come up with the right word here, maybe advantages would work

I don't understand this.

Please give me a circumstance or scenario that would make you say, "ahhh-HA! That's it!!! I now see balance between CC and OC!!!"



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[DaveM55]

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

Thank you for that.


Because our (mods), or your version of justice is not what mods enforce. Your disagreement with people being critical of police is only your opinion.
Similarly, any members here, being of the opinion that police should be "punished" in some way for their actions, is not a rules violation. They feel that way and you feel otherwise. Discuss, that's the purpose of a discussion forum. There is nothing for a mod to do outside rules violations.



I'm none to thrilled about it either. I take a position somewhere between PeteG and LRT.

Regardless, try and also consider the source of that "mentality". OC'ers are not outraged at police for something OC'ers did... I mean, I see the whole range of opinions on the culpability of the DCPD in this thread. If you disagree with a percentage of those opinions, IMO, you would be better received by explaining WHY rather than repeating the "mob mentality" references.
Try to point out why you disagree with their position rather than bashing them over the head with it You've had it happen to you too so you know how it feels, and you know how ineffective it is at convincing anyone.




I do not think anyone is doing any such thing. As you can see, your statement was received similarly by many people.

You were responding to a person (normanvin) who is not party to any litigation.

The only logical extrapolation of the statement discussed ("you persuing the case are no better..."), given the above circumstance, is that "you pursuing the case" is directed at the 5 plaintiff actually pursuing the case. Thats how I saw it too.

Don't take this the wrong way, Dave, but you have a history of posting inflammatory OC criticism and then claiming that "that is not what I said" when called/questioned on it. From my perspective I can see how this can be construed by others as talking from both sides of ones mouth. Another way to put it is; If you find yourself stating "do not put words in my mouth" as often as you do, maybe you should at least consider more carefully picking your words. I really don't think anyone is putting words your mouth just for the sake of beating up on Dave. ...well, admittedly there are always exceptions!
I only say this because, again, I read your comments the same as those people did. I saw the same clear (to me) meaning in your post that they did.. They were your words that implied a similar meaning to many people. I hope you take this as constructive criticism and not a bash, because it is not. I just think your being put on the defensive could be avoided by more careful conversation.

ETA: A dose of my own medicine... I read this reply after posting and it has a preachy tone to it that I did not intend it to have. But I didn't just want to write "Pick your words more carefully!"

Maybe I need to work on my English composition. Sometimes people reply to my posts with thoughts that never occurred to me when I entered the post. So yes they seem ridiculous or exaggerated when I read some replies. I teach electronics for a living and have often been told my demeanor is a bit preachy. It comes from standing at the podium for twelve years. I'll work on it.

At least I have good spelling.

[DaveM55]

Originally Posted by Gary in Pennsylvania

I don't understand this.

Please give me a circumstance or scenario that would make you say, "ahhh-HA! That's it!!! I now see balance between CC and OC!!!"



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Damn I suck at explaining this. I'm not looking for balance between OC and CC.

Let me try again. One for instance: I'd like to see unemotional discussion concerning training as it applies to OC/CC. Hope that came across right.

Another you ask, OK I'm on a roll now (feeble attempt at humor to lighten the mood) Discussion of realistic risks concerning OC/CCwithout anyone getting flamed, pissed off, pissed on, etc.

Lunch is over, got to go back to work.

Hope that cleared it up.

[Lycanthrope]

This thread is painfully muddied to my eyes.

We can talk about one incident at OCB....or we can talk about gun rights in general.

Bad things happened at OCB. Maybe people were to blame, maybe there was a lack of education, maybe the planets just aligned wrong. It will get dealt with using the best system we currently have to resolve these types of matters. Someone will win, someone will lose or both parties will have some compromises either socially, legally or monetarily. It should be fair, but there are never gurantees on that. In this case, talking about how the police...those particular DC individuals reacted is ok by me. Making wide generalizations, however, about all police is kind of narrow minded. Of course, some professions do create their own psychological issues that is part of human nature...and not a training issue. The Stanford Prison Experiment is a good example of how a profession can bring out bad behavior....in good people. It bears thought before we assume the worst of people.

http://www.prisonexp.org/

Also I have brought up before that even good training info can have adverse effects on what you are trying to accomplish. "Common sense" remedies can easily go bad without a look at the social component. We don't have any basis yet, that anything we are doing is working to further our cause and I'm not sure that we have any sort of common agenda....at least not in this thread.


Ok, enough about that....now if we are really serious about furthering OC rights then talking about the DC police is just venting. It's akin building a net at a waterfall because the town put a playground by the river and didn't build a fence.....we are way downstream from the real problem. Someone in the general public called the police.....a call the police should have never gotten.

We need to spend all this energy on normalizing the right to carry for the general populace. I see very little dialogue on that.....and I'm beginning to feel no one wants to really figure it out....must be more fun to sling mud. We spend so much bandwidth on deciding which bandaid to put on the problem, and yet, we don't tie our shoes to keep from falling down......

As I alluded to before, OC is a right.....but that does not mean that the people of this state are friendly toward it. As gun owners...particularly defensive gun owners....we do not represent the average PA citizen who owns a couple guns for deer. We are also dealing with a law that has never traditionally been exercised here (hey, somewhere that was OUR fault) and most people simply don't care. That may not be right, but it's a fact.

It's why I advocate that OC activism should be planned out....or at least brainstorm the risks and plan accordingly. Any given day walking down the street, it's your right to wear an offensive T-shirt (racist remarks, etc). Now...it may be your right to express yourself, but any breaking of a social norm will cause you trouble....and sometimes harm. We have to acknowledge that and start talking about it.

Or not....and we can continue to appear like we enjoy bashing everyone under the sun and not taking realistic accountability for how we can solve the problem.

Without that....when it all boils down to it...it makes us look ignorant.

Lycanfocuspeoplethrope