Pa. Patriot ARRESTED at the OC dinner @ The Old Country Buffet in Dickson City 5/9

[larrymeyer]

Originally Posted by headcase

I am going to try to keep this brief and focused..

I am so hopping mad after reading both Rich's reply, and Dave's reply to that. When I wrote that those present that night had their rights violated, in front of their families, it may have been glossed over, but the scarring Rich's son is suffering from as a result, is just as important a reason to make a highly visible example of these officers as the actual rights violations. It incenses me, not only the thought of Rich's poor son, but that it could just as easily be mine. My wife, my son, and myself, would have been there except for a rush at her job. What about the other children there? What about children who witness other officer abuses of their parents or loved ones? You may call me a psycho, but I would rather see a police officer killed, in the line of duty, and be able to explain to my son that he gave his life in a noble cause, than to see one walk away safely, after violating someone's rights in front of their kids.

Dave said he put me on his ignore list, so I won't go off on his post, but it disgusted me.

Rich, I....can't articulate my sorrow and outrage that your family has to deal with this, but I am sure you know how I feel.

Have to spread the love but this is a great post

[phillyd2]

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

Not sure how I missed this little gem.

I couldn't help but laugh at first. Funny thing is that, technically, I did not get to eat but a literal couple bites of my dinner I paid for... For me it's not a big deal. Not the first meal I've missed a paid for meal due to something coming up or another priority... Nope, the problem was not that I didn't get to eat my meal. It was a LOT bigger than that.

The real problem is that in the above quoted post you presume to know what we went through. You then intentionally marginalize what we went through.

What a down right crappy thing to do

No Dave, it was definitely not just a few bites of food.

In reality we were abused by out of control public servants.
We were removed from our friends and families for nothing
We were talked down to.
We were insulted.
We were publicly detained and searched.
We were made a negative and public spectacle of due to the ignorance of some public servants.
We were forced to then decide to sit back and ignore the abuse and thereby be partially responsible for any further abuses by this police department or go through the toils of trying to hold these "officers" accountable for their actions. Public abuse, time, and money to name a few.

I was physically ill for the first three days due to lack of sleep.

And you dare marginalize the abuse of citizens by trusted citizen peace officers. I'm very disturbed by that.

Let me tell you something else, Dave. My six year old son has been in fear of the police ever since. Despite several conversations explaining the problem and that the police are not the bad guys. He has had several melt downs upon seeing police while out and about since 5/9... Just Monday night, I took him to get ice cream, for a promised reward. As we sat at the picnic table outside the ice cream stand, two TWP police cars rounded the corner. The TWP building is across the street from the ice cream stand. My boy pointed and yelled "police".
I said that's OK, they're just going to their office. There he sat, unable to hold in the tears, despite my assurance that the police were not coming to arrest daddy. Unable to finish his ice cream. What should have been a happy reward turned into a very shitty outing.

So you go ahead and marginalize the abuses of your fellow officers. I really don't think I expect any different from you, seriously, I don't.

I'm damn well going to "proceed with the case", because I know it makes me better than them. Regardless what that makes me to be in your biased eyes.

Whoa. If this is for the lawsuit showing mental anguish, great and go for it. But....lets not turn the D12 into Rosa Parks

I am not going to give anybody advise on what to teach their kids but to me this incident would make a perfect lesson on the real world and how great of a country we do live in.

If it was my 6 year old....

First Lesson: life is hard and unfair where bad things happen to good people and sometimes bad people get ahead of the good people. Anybody teaching their kids anything counter to this is doing them a great disservice. While it is true that all will be evened out on Judgment Day, on this earth teaching kids that "everything will be ok" and "you are special" fails to properly equip them for life's hardness - which I guess is why many young adults are today running around with a inflated sense of self entitlement while crying like school girls when their Starbucks coffee is not the correct temperature. Yes Billy: life is hard. life is unfair. sometimes you will fail even if you work hard and do all of the right things. Now, pull your pants up, stop complaining and get out there and start swinging because doing anything less, even with all against you, robs you of life's immense joys of when you do win against the odds. Doing anything other than fighting against the odds is a sin.

Second Lesson: Power in the hands of any group is bad. The more hands that hold the power the better. In most other countries in the world, at most other times in the history of mankind - when the powerful or their representatives (i.e.. Police) want to impose their will it is done in darkness with no accountability. Billy: after thanking God for your parents and all of your blessings, don't forget to thank him for living in the greatest country every to exist in all of history. Daddy was not shot and left on the street. Nobody in dark suits showed up at 3 am to take him away, never to be heard of again. No Billy, here in the USA the people still have the power, the rule of law still is our guiding light. Remember, if all men were saint we would not need laws or government. Remember Lesson One, even those entrusted to enforce our laws can do bad things but that is only the very first step in the process. The police had their turn. Their use (abuse) of power is done. Now, the second step of the process begins. Watch how Daddy, a simple man - not rich or powerful or one of the elites - will proudly walk into a court room and with the firmness of his conviction to tell the powerful that they did wrong. Watch, Billy, with amazement and humble appreciation the great power of our system that any man can stand against the government to claim his rights as a free man. Watch Daddy without fear tell those with guns and tanks: NO! And even if Daddy does not win the day, be proud of him for standing up for what is right. Be even prouder of our great country that it is still possible. Remember this day proudly for the rest of your life so that when you are older and see injustice you will not just walk away while the weak are bullied.

Afraid of the police? Billy: you are a free man, An America! We are not afraid of the governement - they are afraid of us. We do not bow down before our leaders, we toss thier asses out of office if they don't do as we want and we sue the snot out of them if they trample our rights. Now, how about some ice cream?

[larrymeyer]

Originally Posted by PeteG

Preposterous?

First, I do not consider it a good thing that one is FORCED to resort to litigation in order to redress violations of civil rights. I think it is an unfortunate (bad) thing, even though unavoidable. Ergo, a law suit is a bad thing to have.

Second, there are other means of redress. One example would be a sit-down with the local PD. Another example would be passive, non-violent resistence. Another example would be armed resistance. Another example would be to organize policitally and get the Borough counsel (who whoever runs the show out there) un-elected, and fire the Police. There are lots of examples. (I think litigation is a good choice in most cases. It is certainly not the only choice.)

Or, you could call people names like the rest of the kids.

Was your second thing not tried and didn't the chief basically say F88K You we're going to do it our way what then is the recourse ???

[Statkowski]

Just e-mailed multi-page letter and attachment to MPOETC's Executive Director, Director of Training, and all Commission Members.

Letter basically copied what I wrote to the State Police Commissioner, the attachment was the Open Carry Training Bulletin.

[Statkowski]

But....lets not turn the D12 into Rosa Parks

Don't want to get involved in the pissing contest, but...

Peoples' civil rights were violated by armed thugs operating under the color of law.

Rosa Parks, if I remember, violated an existing law, but she was in the right - it was the law that was wrong.

The Dickson Twelve were violating no law. It was the Dickson City Police Department that was violating the law.

At the next borough council meeting they said to those that were violated, "Too bad, so sad."

And to shrug off a child's traumatic reaction to such abuse of authority with, "Life's a bitch, get over it."? That, Sir, is crossing the line. An apology for your poor choice of words is, in my opinion, warranted.

[phillyd2]

Originally Posted by Statkowski

And to shrug off a child's traumatic reaction to such abuse of authority with, "Life's a bitch, get over it."? That, Sir, is crossing the line. An apology for your poor choice of words is, in my opinion, warranted.

Hopefully Billy will have better reading comprehension Cheers!

[larrymeyer]

Did any of you read what happened on 5/9 ? I see all of you who weren't there quoting stuff and posting misinformation on what happened that night. I was there and posted what I remember about it. I suggest if you weren't there, when the court dates are announced you attend. By attending you'll get the full story about what transpired in the OCB on 5/9 at that time post your options about who was right and who was wrong whether or not the lawsuit was a good idea or not, remember the lawsuit wasn't filed just for the DC 12 but for all gun owners rights.

If you don't understand that your on the wrong board go to dome lights and post

Just my own $.02

[jb12string]

With all due respect, I'd like to ask again for a seperate thread that contains updates on the status and progress of this incident. Preferably locked and only posted on by certain people (e.g. gnbrotz, PA Patriot) I am subscribed to this thread to keep up with things like that, but all this ancillary discussion is getting tedious.

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by DaveM55

Hey Rich the "you" addressed in that quote was not directed at you or your family. Sorry if you took that personally, you shouldn't have. Sorry to hear your son is suffering.

Thank you for that.

Originally Posted by DaveM55

The point of my post is that some people here are ecstatic with the level of vigilantism in this post. Some here would like nothing more to grab a rope and hang the police. Why haven't you or any other moderator addressed those posts if justice is such a high priority?

Because our (mods), or your version of justice is not what mods enforce. Your disagreement with people being critical of police is only your opinion.
Similarly, any members here, being of the opinion that police should be "punished" in some way for their actions, is not a rules violation. They feel that way and you feel otherwise. Discuss, that's the purpose of a discussion forum. There is nothing for a mod to do outside rules violations.

Originally Posted by DaveM55

I'm equally appalled at the blood lust and mob mentality of a minority few here. This atmosphere is not helping anyone.

I'm none to thrilled about it either. I take a position somewhere between PeteG and LRT.

Regardless, try and also consider the source of that "mentality". OC'ers are not outraged at police for something OC'ers did... I mean, I see the whole range of opinions on the culpability of the DCPD in this thread. If you disagree with a percentage of those opinions, IMO, you would be better received by explaining WHY rather than repeating the "mob mentality" references.
Try to point out why you disagree with their position rather than bashing them over the head with it You've had it happen to you too so you know how it feels, and you know how ineffective it is at convincing anyone.

Originally Posted by DaveM55

Bolded the section I'm responding to. I never said the plaintiffs were not damaged; don't put words in my mouth thank you.

I do not think anyone is doing any such thing. As you can see, your statement was received similarly by many people.

You were responding to a person (normanvin) who is not party to any litigation.

The only logical extrapolation of the statement discussed ("you persuing the case are no better..."), given the above circumstance, is that "you pursuing the case" is directed at the 5 plaintiff actually pursuing the case. Thats how I saw it too.

Don't take this the wrong way, Dave, but you have a history of posting inflammatory OC criticism and then claiming that "that is not what I said" when called/questioned on it. From my perspective I can see how this can be construed by others as talking from both sides of ones mouth. Another way to put it is; If you find yourself stating "do not put words in my mouth" as often as you do, maybe you should at least consider more carefully picking your words. I really don't think anyone is putting words your mouth just for the sake of beating up on Dave. ...well, admittedly there are always exceptions!
I only say this because, again, I read your comments the same as those people did. I saw the same clear (to me) meaning in your post that they did.. They were your words that implied a similar meaning to many people. I hope you take this as constructive criticism and not a bash, because it is not. I just think your being put on the defensive could be avoided by more careful conversation.

ETA: A dose of my own medicine... I read this reply after posting and it has a preachy tone to it that I did not intend it to have. But I didn't just want to write "Pick your words more carefully!"

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by DaveM55

How many OC activists (and I say that with respect) have contacted MPOETC?

I have...many months ago when it was suggested by mtbkski...

No reply.

Originally Posted by DaveM55

This avenue would be a lot less risky for all parties and a much more efficient and effective way of training police about OC.

Sure, if they listen... I've been "educating"police for well over a year now. Meanwhile I still OC. When you get right down to it, it's not my responsibility or job to educate the police. But I still do. Why? Because I would prefer people not be confronted by ignorant LEO's. Just like you, but I can only talk to so many LEO's. And then we must consider the majority that refuse to listen or laugh me off. If you read some of the other OC'ers responses to educating the police you will find an overwhelming response of indifference or unwillingness to listen. Meanwhile, I still OC. I'm not going to forgo my rights waiting for MPOETC to do something.

If critics of OC are so concerned that LEO education is the way to go, maybe they should be sending training memo's, etc. too?

That's not directed at you, Dave. I know you have stated you educate fellow officers on OC, Dave, kudos. But I see little or no action on the part of most OC critics...
They often talk about education being the better method but it seems to me the topic is used as a way to criticize OC'ers that get hassled rather than to legitimately help.