Question - OC & asked to leave but Instead I offer to CC.....

[DaveM55]

Originally Posted by Gary in Pennsylvania

Or am I just stirring up trouble???

I'll get flamed for saying this, but yes IMHO you are just stirring up trouble.

flame on.

[RWhiteman]

I dont see how this could be considered 'stirring up trouble' on a subforum intended for the discussion of concealed and open carry.

Seems like a legit enough question. If you really had your heart set on a sub and carrying at the same time it could happen. Maybe you dont have time to leave and go to another place for lunch.

Is it a stretch, yea. Trouble? Hypotheticals are fun.

[ChamberedRound]

Gary,

If you can convince the property owner/manager to let you stay in the establishment CC , then more power to you. But why patronize a business that would require you to compromise you RKBA?

Originally Posted by ar15jules

I understand that it is private property, BUT, how is it any different than the dude at the cheesteak place in Philly putting up a sign that says order in English? Sign that says no guns, sign that says order in English? I am behind both stores on this issue, but, why isn't everyone going crazy in front of subway?????????? I didn't read about it in the news, or see it on CNN either. Hmmmmmm?
Jules

Joey Vento @ Geno's Steaks put up his sign as a REQUEST, not a DEMAND. He's asking that people order in English, as that's the language that his staff speaks. He mentioned in an interview that you don't HAVE to order in English, he just can't guarantee that you'll get what you want. His sign isn't denying service, it's a warning that you might not get good service if you can't communicate with the staff. This is actually different from the "no guns" crap, because establishments that are against carrying weapons are typically asking a person to leave (which indirectly denies them service), or they're calling the cops on someone for exercising a right.

[Gary in Pennsylvania]

Originally Posted by ChamberedRound

Gary,

But why patronize a business that would require you to compromise you RKBA?

Hmmmmm....

Does it have to be management who ousts me? If it's just the sammich boy - does he speak on behalf of management?

And going back to Chambered's quote - we see more often than not that it ISN'T the business (policy) to compromise my RKBA.....but rather an ingnorant pion employee that thinks he/she is wearing the 'big kid pants' that day and tries to make a business call themself.

[ChamberedRound]

Originally Posted by Gary in Pennsylvania

Hmmmmm....

Does it have to be management who ousts me? If it's just the sammich boy - does he speak on behalf of management?

And going back to Chambered's quote - we see more often than not that it ISN'T the business (policy) to compromise my RKBA.....but rather an ingnorant pion employee that thinks he/she is wearing the 'big kid pants' that day and tries to make a business call themself.

More often than not a manager or employee of a business is assumed to speak on behalf of the business/property owner, as they work for said owner. If the manager/employee is not representing the owner's interests (like telling people not to carry when the owner has no problem with it, or vice versa), then it's the owner's responsibility to deal with that. However, that would be an internal issue; my guess would be that you would have to respect the wishes of the employee, report to the owner if you feel the need, and then wait for the owner to resolve the situation.

Of course, you could always eat somewhere else...

[DPD15]

More to the point of the original question by trouble maker (just kidding)! You have NO legal obligation to answer ANY question by some nerd (citizen) unless he is asking what type of Subway sandwich you want! You are under NO legal obligation to be honest with him, if he asks if you are carrying a piece! Obviously if a LEO asks that question - you may want to be truthful or assert your rights if you are going to incriminate yourself.

Imagine the conversation this way: Nerd: "Sir are you still carrying that horrible gun that you may use to save my life or yours if I am robbed?"

You: "Why, no - I would not want to offend you or any of the other customers here, besides I would not want someone to see the gun who may want to rob you and decide not to. This way you get robbed and if we are all lucky, we all get robbed! Now aren't you glad you told me to leave the store with my gun and put it away?"
Talking

Nerd: "Excuse me sir - I am quitting before I pee my pants."

[ChamberedRound]

Originally Posted by DPD15

More to the point of the original question by trouble maker (just kidding)! You have NO legal obligation to answer ANY question by some nerd (citizen) unless he is asking what type of Subway sandwich you want! You are under NO legal obligation to be honest with him, if he asks if you are carrying a piece! Obviously if a LEO asks that question - you may want to be truthful or assert your rights if you are going to incriminate yourself.

Imagine the conversation this way: Nerd: "Sir are you still carrying that horrible gun that you may use to save my life or yours if I am robbed?"

You: "Why, no - I would not want to offend you or any of the other customers here, besides I would not want someone to see the gun who may want to rob you and decide not to. This way you get robbed and if we are all lucky, we all get robbed! Now aren't you glad you told me to leave the store with my gun and put it away?"
Talking

Nerd: "Excuse me sir - I am quitting before I pee my pants."

The only concern with this is that if you lie, and you're found out, and someone reported you to the Sheriff, he/she could revoke your LTCF under the open-ended "character and reputation" clause or however it's worded. This assumes the person in question has an LTCF; if they don't and were OC'ing, then in this situation the person would have to disarm if they insisted on patronizing the business, as CC would not be legal.

[DPD15]

Originally Posted by ChamberedRound

The only concern with this is that if you lie, and you're found out, and someone reported you to the Sheriff, he/she could revoke your LTCF under the open-ended "character and reputation" clause or however it's worded. This assumes the person in question has an LTCF; if they don't and were OC'ing, then in this situation the person would have to disarm if they insisted on patronizing the business, as CC would not be legal.

You have got to be kidding! Why would you be expected to admit you were carrying a concealed piece to some 18 yr old burger flipper? Even with a LTCF (CCW)? And obviously if you do not have a LTCF and you carry concealed, you would be a fool to admit you were packing.

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally Posted by ChamberedRound

The only concern with this is that if you lie, and you're found out, and someone reported you to the Sheriff, he/she could revoke your LTCF under the open-ended "character and reputation" clause or however it's worded.l.

It's not that "open ended".

Here is how it's worded:

(i) An individual whose character and reputation is such that the individual would be likely to act in a
manner dangerous to public safety. Emphasis added

How is lying to a clerk going to meet this?

[Gary in Pennsylvania]

Originally Posted by gf45acp

Gary, while I understand that it is not your question, may I comment that it is probably best not to support the business by giving them your money. If they don't care about peoples rights then stick it to their wallet.

Nope. This idea/concept doesn't fly with me.

I've read PLENTY of threads here on PAFOA regarding OC, whether to tell a cop you're carrying, etc....
The bottom line always seems to be, "I do it cuz it's my right to! Failure to exercise your rights equates to victory for the anti-gunner crowd."

Let's look at what gf45acp is trying to say......
If I.....one freakin' person......decide to just turn around and leave the business INSTEAD of offering to untuck and CC....have I really stuck it to the business??? Have I really harmed their wallet and sent the message that I WANT to have sent - "You lose money because you won't allow OC."??
Hell no! There could be 15 of us OC'ers turned away and the highest up the management chain that information will go is just that immediate shop management.

Go back to me - If I decide to leave the sammich shop....does high management know? Nope. Do I send a message? Nope.

Here's what happens - I lose out in eating what I really wanted. Geek boy behind the counter thinks he's He-Man cuz he just sent a gun-toter on his way. I have failed to exhaust all reasonable means to get what I want - a Freakin Spicy Italian with loads of extra hot peppers.
Honestly, by me telling geek boy "Fine. You won't serve me because I'm OC'ing??? Then I just won't spend my money here!"
C'mon PAFOA - I have 4 kids ages 2, 4, 6, & 8. Telling geek boy that reminds me of some of the silly crap my kids yell at each other - "FINE THEN! I'm not your friend anymore! In fact, I won't even be your SISTER anymore!" Sounds silly, eh? Big deal.

If I get my sammich by untucking to CC.....I still get my sammich. Geek boy doesn't get too much of a victory because AFTER I've paid, I coldly & matter-of-factly tell him that I WILL be contacting sammich shop headquarters about geek boy's refusal to serve my while OC'ing.

Even if 50 of us ban together and decide we won't eat a a particular sammich shop........based on how frequently we WOULD typically have eaten there - we're not delivering any real economic impact.
Yeah yeah yeah......If we contact HQ, that'll likely get attention....and I'd do that myself anyway. AFTER I get my freakin' sammich!