Dickson City: An alternate outcome

[TonyF]

Some people understood the main point of this thread.

Some actually brought something to the table (thank you DPB).

But some folks didn't get it.

For benefit of those who didn't get it, this wasn't about "training" as an option to enable "one" or "some" to prevail in this scenario as I indicated in the original post quoted below.

TonyF wrote:

... this is a scenario that would even be difficult to resolve if members of the same SWAT team happened to be dining together.

The point of this thread can be summarized in a nutshell as follows.

"Having a gun and thinking you are armed is like having a piano and thinking you are a musician".
-- Col. Jeff Cooper (U.S.M.C. Ret.)

It also involves recognizing ones limitations (re: DPB wrote: "... don't try to force a shot ...").

[Swarner793]

Originally Posted by DPB

Interesting question. I am not acquainted with any of the "Dickson 12," nor am I familiar with the location where this incident took place. Because of this, my observations will be somewhat generalized.

Best possible solution involving weapon deployment/gunfire, the trained individual(s) are able to respond appropriately before the general melee/fracas/free-for-all begins.

Unfortunately, there are a great many assumptions with this outcome. Minimally: 1) Someone brought their A game (or got lucky) and was sufficiently alert (and lucky) to see the situation develop, 2) He/She was able to deploy a weapon in a timely manner, 3) He/She had a clean field of fire, 4) He/She was able to effectively engage the hostiles, 5) The hostiles quit or were made to quit before more confusion ensued.

The factor that makes all of this (or any other favorable outcome) unlikely is that the restaurant scenario is likely to contain a large number of persons who are neither with the criminal element nor with the responding party. These "noncombatants," for lack of a better term, provide camouflage, cover, concealment, distractions, and potential hostages for the criminal element while providing no advantage to the responding party. There are a lot of "no shoots" in this scenario.

Even if some of the armed citizens have training, what is the probability they have any "team" training? Will any of the unarmed family members know to get down and out of the way, or, alternately, will one of the armed citizens have the presence of mind to tell them to do so. Same questions regarding the other noncombatants present. The speed at which this scenario could develop could mean that only individual skills matter and that team skills are not relevant.

The individual reactions of all parties involved is another huge variable.

At a minimum, individual weapon skills would be critical. Possibly even more important, however, is weapon discipline, specifically, don't try to force a shot you don't have. Clearly, a trained individual should have both superior skills and superior discipline.

Great points worthy of your avatar! Especially, the shot discipline issue.

As citizens, independent of each other and having dinner with one's family, I believe the objective is to counter any threats against you. If you and yours are safe, then, if circumstances permit, it would be to act against the aggression. I don't think there is a fancy class or some "training" that is going to change that.

Now, if I am working in a protection role, my course of action would be different, as would my required level of training.

Be safe (and armed, you can always get training).

Scott

[DPB]

Originally Posted by Swarner793

Great points worthy of your avatar! Especially, the shot discipline issue.

Selection never ends.


No class, and no amount of training, is going to prepare you for every potential situation. And you can always get training, right up until you are involved in a violent encounter. Then, it's a "come as you are" war.

What training will do is reduce the amount of attention you have to pay to the process of employing the firearm.

Think of it like this: Your brain has a certain "bandwidth," for lack of a better turn. Everything your senses pick up and everything you do requires bandwidth.

The untrained shooter will require most of his bandwidth to employ his weapon. Everyone has seen a new shooter work from the holster, where you can see the wheels turning in their head as they are thinking "I've got a gun - get my hand on the gun - pull the gun out of the holster - get the gun pointed in the right direction - get my other hand on the gun - find the sights (hopefully) - align the sights - find the trigger - press the trigger - assess what happened." By the time this shooter has worked through this, he has used up all of his bandwidth, and a lot of critical time. That's bandwidth that he could have been using for decision making.

The trained shooter, upon determining that a shooting solution is required, will do these things with a very minimal usage of his/her bandwidth. Which leaves the rest of the bandwidth to asses whether shooting is really appropriate, where the "no shoots" are, what movement and communication options are available, etc. His/her mental processes are not consumed with the mechanical act of hitting the target with the projectile. Which allows his brain to process the parts of the situation he/she cannot control, and act/react accordingly.

The best analogy is driving. When you are first learning to drive, your process is very much like the untrained individual (because that's what you are). Today, 95% of what you do on the road (for better or worse) you do without conscious thought.

One other note, by training, I don't mean that you've done something a couple of times. I mean that you have done thousands of correct repititions, so that your hands move pretty much on their own. There are some equipment issues associated with this, but that's another topic.

As I once heard an instructor say, "There are no advanced skills, you just do the basic stuff better."

doug

[RobW]

Originally Posted by DPB

As I once heard an instructor say, "There are no advanced skills, you just do the basic stuff better."

doug

Amen to that, as any competitive shooter can attest to. I've seen some of the "big names" in action first hand - they don't do anything spectacular, until you score the targets and record the final time.

--Rob W.