Malfunctions seen at IDPA matches

[Rule10b5]

I've recently started shooting IDPA, and something is bugging me because I can't figure it out.

At each match I have the opportunity to see more than a few malfunctions, chokes, or whatever. I tend to pay special attention to them -- simply because I'd like to know what the shooter did to cause it, if it's the gun, or the ammo, or whatever so I can learn how to avoid it happening to me.

It seems like most of the malfs happen to guys shooting 1911s -- which I can't figure out. Most of the guys are experienced shooters, using decent (i.e. Springfield/Kimber grade and up) guns, new (or near-professionally loaded) ammo, and good technique.

What puzzles me is this:

What is causing the malfunctions? Are they hacking on the guns and screwing them up? Are they getting bad (or underpower) ammo? Am I missing something technique-wise that they're screwing up?

Why do they continue to use (and carry) guns that don't work 100%?

Why aren't they fixing the guns between matches? I've seen the same guys with the same malfs at two matches.

Is this just a competition thing -- do they genuinely not care?

I get borderline enraged when I have a gun that doesn't work perfectly. And it goes back to the shop or the gunsmith as many times as necessary to get it working perfectly -- or it gets sold.

The only thing I can think is that I'm seeing the impact of home gunsmithing by guys who are anything but gunsmiths. Both the 1911 and Glock lend themselves well to tuning and modifying, but the 1911 requires much more skill to modify, whereas the Glock is mostly a drop in idiot-proof system.

Any thoughts?

[SteveD]

Without knowing what types of malfunctions you've witnessed, I'll relay what I've seen at USPSA matches.

Most problems tend to be ammo related. Light loads not cycling the slide, light primer strikes or high primers seem to be the majority of the problems. I've seen these with both factory and reloaded ammo.

Other problems can be stovepipes from brass not ejecting because the ejection port is along a wall or barricade. Magazines also can cause problems with cracked or out of spec feed lips. Dropping them on the ground stage after stage also gets them full of dirt causing feed problems. I try to clean my mags after each stage before I reload them.

[Rule10b5]

I tend to see stovepipes, and simple FTFs. The odd double-feed here and there.

I suppose the stovepipes are from underpowered ammo, like you said. But the rest seem a bit odd to me.

[hzox221]

As Steve said earlier, most problems we see in USPSA with either a 1911 or 2011 are related to either mags or ammunition. The next biggest problem tends to be either extractor or ejector related.

My experieince with IDPA is that most shooters are not really interested in the competitive nature of the sport and tend to be more interested in having cool equipment and clothing. Most of the shooters at our club when we ran our IDPA program would show up for a match and not handle a gun until the next months match. The quality of their skill level was not the greatest. I doubt that many of them would have known how to fix a 1911 that was not tuned right. Hell, my default is to take the gun to the gun smiith when I am having repeated malfunctions. I am just a driver not a mechanic.

[The Drew]

1911's regularly need their extractors tuned... if the extractor is not properly tuned, you'll see FTF's, stovepipes, double feeds (when the extractor slips off the round in the chamber and it stays then trys to feed the next round)

I have seen many name brand 1911's that have come from the box without the extractor tuned... It WILL cause malfunctions.

On the other side, I have seen MORE issues with 1911's due to bad mags and ammo. Each 1911 is like it's own animal, they each like to eat different things, and they each may be more picky about mags.

[synergy]

If I had to guess...it comes from ding-dongs messing with springs. Be it shooters putting reduced power firing pin springs in the Glocks for lighter trigger pulls, increased recoil springs on SS guide rods..... Or 1911 shooters playing with their mainspring/ recoil spring/ FP Stop angles.

Then loading their own bullets to the exact charge that cycles, but doesn't produce any more recoil than needed.

Rule10b... H's Vickers NH has a good 10k rounds through it....if it's had even 5 malfunctions I'd be surprised. My Glock has gone the last 6k rounds or so with 1 jam, from a tired magazine spring. What do we have in common? We left the gun the f**k alone, pro-actively replaced springs with STOCK springs before we push them to failure, and give our guns the lube they need, where they need it.

The Vickers he has is as tight as can be...but I've seen that gun go 2k+ rounds between cleanings...I know for the first few thousand rounds, he didn't even field strip it, and it ran like a top.

Either that or folks are too busy trying to find their HK shirt to wear at the match, that they forget to lube up their range toy.

[Rule10b5]

Well, whatever it is, I can't believe how often I'm seeing people with guns that choke.

I mean, sheesh, most of these people are ostensibly shooting with their carry guns (I'm not, but my G34 is un-fucked with, loaded with regular FMJ, and thus works perfectly). And they choke. And then choke again. And then they stop, look back at the RO, do the deer in the headlights shoulder-shrug thing, and give up on the stage.

I mostly just don't get why they continue to carry/shoot a gun if it doesn't work. These aren't guys shooting a Lorcin or Raven or any such nonsense -- they're people with money, who're clearly concerned about their own self-protection, and who can afford to shoot guns that work. I'm baffled.

[synergy]

Originally Posted by Rule10b5

I mean, sheesh, most of these people are ostensibly shooting with their carry guns (I'm not, but my G34 is un-fucked with, loaded with regular FMJ, and thus works perfectly). And they choke. And then choke again. And then they stop, look back at the RO, do the deer in the headlights shoulder-shrug thing, and give up on the stage.

I'd be the asshole in the background yelling "FIGHT!!!!"

I don't care if you need to ditch your Sig and take out your Leatherman...those targets need killin'.

[ted murphy]

FWIW, the most common non ammo related 1911 jam I ususally see is when the shooter simply fails to seat the magazine fully in the gun. The magazine is in enough to stay put, but it is not high enough to feed a round into the gun.

At my club's IDPA match monday I saw at least one 1911 shooter doing that on a stage that he did a tactical reload on.

You will see this malf more when you are doing a reload with a round in the pipe then when you see a slide lock reload. I see it with other guns too, particularly high cap guns that have clintonized (i.e. 10 round) magazines.

Many 1911's are finicky with springs and ammo selection. This is not as much a flaw of the design as it is what happens when you push things. When you get 8 round magazines that are no longer than the 7 round ones, you are taking a bit of a sacrifice in spring power and follower design in order (concave instead of convex) to shoehorn that extra round in. That means your mags are a little behind the curve and should be kept squeaky clean and the springs should be monitored and replaced on a regular basis. I change my 1911 springs about once a year, though I went 2 years on my last set. On the 9mm 1911, it is more pronounced and the springs must be kept up. This is one of the reasons why companies like wilson's now have the slightly longer 8 round magzines that nare not as much of a compromise as the standard length models.

Shooters also experiment with ammo a lot more on the 1911 platform. For gun games, the 165 power factor is a bit lighter than what John Browning intended for the gun. Shooters however, like to download the cartridge until they can get it to function right at the power factor. If they are not dillgent reloaders who do their homework and chronograph, they will choke from time to time. Especially if they do not mate the right spring with the right reduced charge. This is getting worse now that some guys are trying to download 45acp to 125 power factor for IDPA's ESP division. It has created some spectacular stoppages.

But mostly why you see many jams with the more customized guns is that too many people tinker beyond their ability. I am starting to see a lot of serious malfunctions with the Glock handguns as people are now treating them like a chevy short block engine and bolting all sorts of useless extra crap on them that the gun doesn't need, and which complicates or compromises the mechanism.

In other words, it usually isn't the gun platform, but instead there is a nut loose behind the wheel.

But stock guns die too...

Monday night I also saw a particularly nasty failure to feed with a glock 17 and a factory 9mm round. The round fed funny and caught on the factory barrel and locked the gun up good. I had to grab the slide tightly and smack the grip to dislodge the round for the shooter. Not sure what caused that one.

Which leads me to the most important thing. Shooters really need to learn how to diagnose and handle malfunctions, even if they think their gun is flawless. One of the best training classes I ever attended had a 8-9 hour segment on just jam clearing. The instructor (Walt Rauch) made the point that what good is all the neato tactics or shooting tricks if you cannot make the gun run? And he made a good point.

Ted

[Rob Pincus]

I'm with you... the number of malfunctions and the COMPLACENCY with which they are responded to is staggering in the "practical" and "defensive" competition games.

I just uploaded a podcast on the topic of malfunctions, so this thread caught my eye....

Training and practicing (competition included) is a great time to find out if your gun works... I think that the guys who modify their guns in order to Game competitions fall into two categories:

1. Group A knows that they are playing a game and accept the reality of the compromises that come with shooting up against barricades, changing springs, using non-spec ammo, etc..

2. Group B doesn't know any better and really think that they are "training" when they are participating in the competitions and tend to rationalize their compromises and ignore the fact that their ego is trying to override logic and physics in order to get a better score.

The first group I am fine with, the second group are dangerous to themselves and others.

At the end of the day, as noted in the post above, the point SHOULD be that when a malfunction is encountered, it has to be fixed as efficiently as possible.

-RJP